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The Iraqi labour movement comes first!

War and Terror

Sean Matgamna replies to Barry Finger’s On anti-war slogans: lessons from two wars (Solidarity 3-81)

SHOULD WE “DEMAND” CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ?

Almost all the the likely scenarios in Iraq are in varying degrees unfavourable for the labour movement. They will go on being unfavourable until a strong labour movement emerges and can create new possibilities; begin to make the working class the subject of politics and history rather than what it is now, their object and their victim. For that the Iraqi labour movement must survive and develop, organisationally and politically.

Socialists do not just mechanically take our “line” even from semi-co-thinkers in Iraq. We have to make our own understanding of the situation. But we take into account what working class people in Iraq say.

The Kurdish leaders want US troops to stay. The Shia alliance talked of troops out in the campaign for the 30 January elections, but the elected government (elected by a large majority, and contrary to the USA’s preferences) has shelved that. In any case it was a “general position” for troops out — like ours — not a call for “Troops Out Now”. Some Shia call for troops out, perhaps meaning immediately, and some do not, though in general the troops are very unpopular.

The Sunni Arabs are generally for troops out, meaning now, though some differentiation may be taking place there now.

Thus, outside the Sunni Arab areas, by no means a clear choice for Troops Out Now. It is left to the kitsch left to line up with the most intransigent of the Sunni Arabs and with the Al Qaeda people speculating that they would benefit out of chaos. It is left to the kitsch-left to shout: bring on the catastrophe — now!

The immediate or, in Barry Finger’s expression, “precipitous” withdrawal of the occupying troops would, most likely, lead to three-way sectarian (Sunni, Shia) and national (Kurdish) civil war.

The Sunni-supremacists and Ba’thists at the core of the “resistance” could not again emerge as the dominant force in Iraq without conquering Shia Iraq and the Kurds. From such a civil war, Shia southern Iraq would, perhaps, emerge as a theocracy akin to and protected by Iran. The Kurds might hold their own, or Turkey might invade the Kurdish territories, as two years ago it was threatening to do.

In those conditions, the nascent Iraqi labour movement — which is our central concern — would probably be destroyed.

The opposite is not necessarily true: that if the occupation continues, there will be no civil war, no theocracy, no destruction of the labour movement, no bloody disintegration of the Iraqi entity. In fact the chances of a “good” outcome from the destruction of Saddam Hussein’s regime and the occupation have in the last two and a half years grown less, without as yet having entirely disappeared. But a “precipitous” withdrawal would maximise the chances of destruction for the labour movement.

AWL was against the war. We preach “no political trust or confidence” in the American, British, or any ruling class, in their states, their politicians, or their armies. We analyse the motives of the American, British and other ruling classes in their dealings with Iraq; solidarise with the new Iraqi labour movement wherever it clashes with the occupiers; indict US/UK misdeeds unsparingly; say to those Iraqi socialists whom we can reach and to people in Britain that they cannot rely on the US and UK to bring democracy. We long ago, before the war, pointed out that the occupation of Iraq would not curb Islamist terrorism. That is enough for now.

We say that the peoples of Iraq must have self-determination. We maintain a stance of hostility to the troops and we do not call on the British and Americans to stay.

What we refuse to do, and it is the crux of our dispute with Barry Finger, is raise a “demand”, Troops Out Now, whose likely, calculable, practical consequences we do not want. Which may well bring on a catastrophe that will abort all the possibilities that the rising labour movement is opening for the working class of Iraq. (And for the region, perhaps, where, though there is a powerful working class, there is scarcely any labour movement except in Israel — at best, some elements of a labour movement, among the Palestinians, in Lebanon).

The behaviour of the occupying forces — the senseless brutality and slaughter of Iraqi civilians, the economic looting by the US rulers, the arrogance, the casual deployment of lethal firepower against civilians, and the sheer all-round epoch-defining ineptitude — has piled up, is piling up, enormous barriers against any “benign” scenario.

The only reason for not now deciding that the best thing is that the US, Britain, etc. should just get out is that that would calculably be to give up all hope for anything less bad than the scenario of three-way civil war and destruction of the labour movement. Things are not at that stage yet; but, the way they are doing, they may go that far.

Are slogans “principles”?

Barry Finger’s politics on Iraq are in fact quite close to those of the “anti-war movement”. His distinction between Troops Out and being for the victory of the reactionary Iraqi “resistance” is largely a notional one. The slogan Troops Out Now is inescapably, a siding with the reactionary resistance. Who else does he think would gain “now” from the troops disappearing “now”?

But he argues — if I understand him — that the slogan “Troops Out of Iraq Now” is a matter of principle. In doing so, he paints himself into a political corner from which, in terms of the reasonings and arguments he presents, there is no escape.

He more or less admits that “precipitous” withdrawal of the foreign troops would be likely to lead to the destruction of the Iraqi labour movement by the forces of Ba’thist-fascist and clerical-fascist reaction.

Nonetheless, he insists that if we let calculations about the practical, concrete — Iraqi! — meaning of “Troops Out Now”, inhibit us from demanding “the immediate withdrawal of imperialist forces”, then we are

• engaging in an impermissible “ideological compromise” with imperialism;

• “blatantly support[ing]” and engaging in “an interim appeasement programme towards the status quo on this side of the imperialist battle lines”;

• engaging in an objective united front with imperialism; relying on a provisional and tactical military reliance on imperialism”;

• seeking a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism without actually advocating it”;

• and may wind up going over to Blairism.

Ours is not to reason, calculate, or calibrate, and still less to decide on slogans and “demands” according to an analysis of the concrete situation and what they mean, or will most likely mean, in that situation. There are slogans that are above and outside of all such political calculations. We must raise a slogan whose calculable practical consequences, if it were to be implemented, neither Barry nor we want!

What’s wrong with what he says?

It is far too abstract. It conflates propaganda and agitation. It resides up in the clouds somewhere, far too high above the ground. It displays too little concern for the Iraqi labour movement.

Barry Finger “blurs” and fudges what for us is, in Iraq as in all other situations, the central question — the working class, the labour movement, and their fate.

He writes:

“In truth, there can be no guarantees that such a precipitous withdrawal would not lead to the very disaster the AWL “fears.” “Guarantees” implies that there is, if not a “guarantee”, at least a fair chance that the Iraqi labour movement would survive.

If there is a chance, it is a very slim one.

It is not a matter of AWL unreasonably demanding “guarantees” from current history, but of whether socialists should “demand” that the USA and Britain act in a way that will most likely ensure the worst consequences of their destruction of the vile Ba’thist state.

At issue between AWL and Barry Finger is not whether socialists should give the US/ UK positive political support or political confidence, or forget for now who, socially and politically, and what they are. We don’t do any of these things. It is whether we gauge the concrete meaning of a slogan like Troops Out Now, and decide on its use accordingly, or make a fetish of it. Whether we use such slogans as tools or as a set of authoritative instructions to be blindly obeyed and served, to be raised mechanically without regard to their meaning in a given situation.

Why would sensible people, non-religious people fetishise such slogans?

The political corner Barry Finger has painted himself into, and into which he invites us to step, rising above our “political frailties”, “ideological compromises”, and objective united front with imperialism, is defined on one of its three sides by his admission that “precipitous” US-British withdrawal may mean the destruction of the Iraqi labour movement.

Its second side is defined by his belief — if I understand him — that Troops Out Now, is a matter of basic principle, whose absence in any situation amounts to a de facto denial of self-determination.

Its third and final side is Barry Finger’s belief that any notion of the Iraqi labour movement being able to benefit from, take advantage of, or find space to breath, think and grow, inside the present occupation — even temporarily — means basing ourselves on imperialism, and compromising with it ideologically. (So, if the new Iraqi labour movement has benefited from the US-British destruction of the Saddam regime — and it undeniably has, since 2003 — it would be better had it never come into existence? That is what the reactionary “anti-imperialists” say. But Barry Finger?

Barry Finger traps himself — against all his intentions, instincts, and beliefs, of course — into not only an absurd, but also an anti-working-class position.

The Iraqi labour activists will just have to be stoical, bear their fate bravely, and understand that though we reach the same conclusions as the reactionary “anti-imperialists” shouting for “Troops Out Now” and thereby succouring the Saddamists and clerical fascists, our motive is different — to put ourselves in the best position to resist the “gravitational pull” of imperialism.

Brutus and Cassius both stab Caesar, but for different motives. If Brutus explains to the dying man that he was motivated by higher goals than those of the jealous Cassius and his friends, Caesar will understand and die happy…

I suggest that there must be something radically wrong either with comrade Finger’s reasoning or else with the “principles” that lead to these conclusions.

calls to action

We are rightly chary of making positive demands on the big powers. We would not try to tell them what to do next in Iraq, for example. But when it comes to negatives, we have no limits!

We can’t tell the US/UK what we would like them to do to ensure the best outcome, because we know that they act for their own reasons and objectives, which are not ours - we have no illusions about that, and do not want to teach others to have illusions. Yes - but we must on principle tell them to act to bring on the worst outcome?

We do not, and do not want to, shout positive “orders” to them — “get more Iraqis killed”, “get Iraqi trade unionists shot”. But we can, do, and on principle must shout the same “orders” to them in negative form?

Excuse me — why?

Because some of our slogans are not slogans, formulas whose use is regulated by what they might mean in a given situation, but fetishes outside of history and of society?

We, AWL, refuse to take that approach. I know of no respect-worthy Marxist in the past who did.

Barry Finger obliterates the necessary distinction between self-determination as a basic programmatic principle for us and one of its possible immediate agitational translations, Troops Out Now. He conflates propaganda and agitation. This is something that the “anti-imperialist”, pro-Iraqi-“resistance” “left” does too.

In part the problem here is the dominant style of left and pseudo-left politics now — tiny propaganda groups, with little or no power to shape events, shouting “instructions” for immediate action to governments, and made reckless by their own powerlessness, because — and they know it, if only subconsciously — what they say will not shape, or in most cases even affect, what happens. That style does not, among Marxists, go back further than the movement against the Vietnam war. It was not, for example, the style of the Trotskyist press in the 1940s.

For instance, after 1945 the Trotskyists demanded self-determination for Germany and that foreign troops should leave, but they didn’t often do that in the form of front-page demands for “Troops Out Now” or whatever.

A major problem with Barry Finger is that the echoes of old 1960s disputes on Vietnam play too large a part in his discussion of Iraq. He lets tactical arguments from then overshadow broader Marxist arguments.

Lenin’s discussion in What Is To Be Done (1902) of the relationship between our theory and propaganda and “calls to action” says a lot to the habits of the left and pseudo-left today.

“To single out a third sphere, or third function, of practical activity, and to include in this function “calling the masses to certain concrete actions”, is sheer nonsense, because the “call”, as a single act, either naturally or inevitably supplements the theoretical tract, propagandist pamphlet and agitational speech, or represents a purely executive function...”

Does the call “Troops Out Now” flow from Barry Finger’s all-round analysis of Iraq? When he concedes that the Iraqi labour movement may (we’d say, will) be destroyed, and sooner rather than later, if the occupation forces scuttle in a “precipitous” withdrawal, he admits it does not.

To make a particular “call to action” our fixed point is to turn our politics upside down. We make no “call to action” on the working class, and still less on anyone else, that does not spin organically and naturally out of our theory, propaganda, programme, and concrete analysis of a situation.

And the meaning of slogans is determined variously by different sets of concrete circumstances. It differs from circumstance to circumstance, and from time to time. Our overall picture of a situation, and of the forces and possibilities in it, determines what “calls to action” are appropriate or inappropriate.

The separation of “calls to action” and would-be catchy slogans from our programme and the general complex of Marxist ideas is one of the most corrosive habits of mind of much of the left today. It has been one of the long-term agents of destruction that has worked its way through, for example. the SWP like syphilis. It has produced what might be called “apparatus Marxism”, “focus-group Marxism”, “party manager’s Marxism” or, to use an older expression for such things, “wire-puller’s Marxism”.

If a slogan (“Troops Out Now”) carries with it the extreme likelihood of disaster for the labour movement (as both Barry Finger and AWL agree, with at most different emphases), then it contradicts our overall concerns. We do not raise it, or we do not raise it in the form that if realised implies disaster.

The general propagandist “position” — that is, the general explanation rather than “call to action” — is enough. We are not obliged to translate the explanation into a “call to action” which will promote forces like the Iraqi “resistance” and help them to turn the would-be summary formula against the fundamental ideas and concerns behind it.

For Marxists there is no slogan that we are obliged to treat as a fetish, something above and outside of its own concrete meaning. The very idea that there might be is ridiculous!

Principles are more or less immutable. How they are broken down into usable slogans or agitational axes is changeable. Slogans are selected not according to the confused idea that they are self-sufficient “principles, but for their immediate effect, concrete application, and practical meaning.

We do not do as the “apparatus Marxists” do and, for calculations of organisational advantage, raise slogans antagonistic to our programme and principles (and, in this case, to the interests of the Iraqi labour movement). The idea that we are obliged to raise or hold to a slogan irrespective of its practical meaning — that, again, is absurd.

In 1920 the Bolsheviks had, as the heirs of Russian Marxism, nearly 40 years — and Lenin, two decades — of sincerely fighting for Poland’s self-determination and its right to independence. I don’t know if that ever took the form of slogans for Russian “Troops Out Now” (I doubt it). But when the Red Army defeated the invading Polish army and chased it deep into Poland — with the intention, in Lenin’s expression, of prodding the German revolution with the bayonet — the slogan “Russian troops out” would have meant not the “democratic affirmation” of self-determination for Poland, but radical opposition to the interests of the Russian workers’ revolution, to its army, and to the international working-class revolution, including that of the Polish workers.

It makes no difference here whether Lenin was right or wrong in his calculations about the advisability of the Red Army pressing into Poland. Events seemed to prove Trotsky’s contrary calculations right. But the Russian workers’ government had a right to refuse to make a fetish of Polish self-determination.

Something higher was involved — the interests of the working class and its revolution. Polish self-determination could easily have been restored — and, if the German workers had taken power, possibly on a higher level, with the Polish working class in power.

The point here is not to compare the US army of today with the Red Army of 1920, but to see that slogans cannot stand apart from and above an overall Marxist analysis. To put it absurdly again: slogans cannot stand higher than their practical meaning!

Barry’s approach — that we are obliged to raise Troops Out Now as an affirmation of democracy and of revolutionary opposition to American imperialism and its British helpers, irrespective of the consequences for the Iraqi labour movement — could only make political sense if “Troops Out Now” embodied a commitment for us higher than the working class and its movement.

I can’t suppose Barry Finger would want to argue that. Yet it is in practice his “position” — that “Troops Out Now” has precedence and priority. It stands above everything else. It has right of way even over the corpse of the Iraqi working-class movement.

Even apart from the fact that Troops Out Now would probably mean, not Iraqi self-determination, but (because there are three “self-determinations”, each in varying degrees hostile to the others) the breaking-apart of Iraq into three statelets through civil war, that does not make socialist or working-class sense.

Democracy is a principle; but self-determination is only one of its forms, and Troops Out Now in turn is only one of self-determination’s possible immediate, sloganised, expressions. Troops Out Now would calculably in fact destroy democratic possibilities.

IMPERIALISM AND REACTIONARY ANTI-IMPERIALISM

Barry Finger seems to rule out the idea that imperialism can bring any progress. That idea amounts to “a provisional and tactical military reliance on imperialism”, etc.

Yet the whole of modern history consists of “progressive” things done by imperialism, from the destruction of fascist totalitarianism to the overthrow, in a different way, of Stalinist totalitarianism! The world we live in would be radically different otherwise.

For sure we give the big capitalist powers no credence, reliance, or confidence in advance. We put forward our own programme in every situation. But we cannot simply say no to the modern world — the world shaped and reshaped, and still being shaped and reshaped, by capitalism and imperialism.

Here, as in our attitude to the concentration and centralisation of capital, or to bourgeois efforts like the European Union, we have to operate within a capitalism that is, relatively, progressive — i.e. doing in its own brutal, predator’s, way, things that take society forward and the immediate alternative to which is reactionary (for example, a return to the walled-off nation-states of pre-EU Europe). We do not and should not relate to those developments by raising slogans which, though they oppose capitalism and imperialism, also “oppose” and contradict what we want, and would take us backward.

Barry Finger warns us “against seeking a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism without actually advocating it”. Again — why? Does he think we should turn our backs on capitalism and start a new society somewhere from scratch?

Our entire world — the world we say can be the basis from which the working class can build socialism — is built on the crimes of class society. The cities of Liverpool and Bristol were built on the slave trade. Early British capitalism accumulated its wealth from the slave trade, piracy against the Spanish pirates and plunderers of Mexico and Peru, and from pillage and genocidal wars in Ireland. European civilisation, on the achievements of which we propose to build socialism, rests on a gigantic mound of human skulls and bones!

Imperialism — that is, advanced capitalism, the dominant force in the world — amidst its horrors, and sometimes by way of its horrors — has done things on which socialists try to build. World War Two and its aftermath are the clearest example. In Europe, American and British imperialism — consider all that needs to be said about their reactionary policies, their enslavement of colonies, etc., said — cut down the totalitarian Nazi geno-imperialism and recreated bourgeois democracy.

In 1940 the labour movement in Europe was everywhere — except in Switzerland, Sweden, Britain, and Ireland — smashed, reduced to weak underground movements, most of them dominated by Stalinist totalitarians. Modern Europe, with its tremendously powerful and potentially world-transforing labour movement, re-emerged under the wing of British and American imperialism. (Yes, of course, peoples resisted the Nazis, struggled, and perhaps by their struggle expanded and broadened the bourgeois-democratic systems that emerged).

Better things would have been possible had we been stronger, had Stalinism not existed? Yes, and our comrades advocated those things. They were right to advocate them and counterpose them what the bourgeois-imperialists did.

Better, in those times, had the European working class asserted itself as an independent “class for itself” and overthrown capitalism, and driven out the occupying armies of Roosevelt-Truman, Churchill-Attlee, and Salin. But it would have been metaphysics-saturated political idiocy for European socialists (and socialists in Japan too, of course) to have foresworn “seeking social and political gain” from the bourgeois-democratic systems and the re-risen labour movements because they were “tainted” by their origins in the victory of American and British imperialism.

The system in Western Europe by, say, 1949 was immense progress, not direct socialist progress, but immense progress nonetheless, compared to 1940 or 1944, above all for the potentialities it opened up for the working-class movement. One of the things that derailed post-Trotsky “orthodox Trotskyism” was its incapacity to understand that and adjust to it.

Our attitude to such progress cannot be different from our attitude to, say, the economic progress which happens under a capitalist system which we want to overthrow, which we believe should and could have been overthrown long ago, and which we continue to work to overthrow.

We extend to the rulers of the USA and Britain no political credit in advance. We criticise them from our own socialist and consistently democratic point of view for what they do and don’t do, and for what they license and acquiesce in. We maintain towards them the stance of mortally hostile communist opponents of bourgeois society.

Nonetheless, we recognise — all of us but the most moon-struck or Mars-dwelling “revolutionary Marxists” — and utilise the imperialist-fostered bourgeois-democratic progress in Western Europe.

Granted, in Iraq now, the odds are lengthening against there being a Japan or Germany-like transformation as a result of the US invasion. We did not call on Bush or Blair to go and effect that transformation. We did not support their war. If they decide to go soon, we will not raise the slogan “don’t go, it’s too soon”. But we recognised the possibilities and discriminated between them. Many things are now possible for the sole superpower.

And in any case, now, today, the Iraqi labour movement has some space to operate in. If the “resistance” should triumph, it will have none.

(Discussion of the possibilities in Solidarity may have helped generate the neo-con nonsense of poor Alan Johnson and the Labour Friends of Iraq. But what makes them what they are, and what divides them from us, is their abandonment of an independent working-class, Third-Camp, stance in relation to Blair and Bush — their political capitulation to Blairism, capitalism, and imperialism. None of that necessarily follows from even the most optimistic expectations from the US-British occupation of Iraq. Johnson’s political collapse was not occasioned by any logical extension or increment of what they have in common with us on Iraq.)

If I understand him, Barry Finger also thinks the slogan Troops Out Now is an essential tool for the democratic education of the anti-war movement.

I grant that it would make intervention in that movement easier. Yes, accepting their fundamental slogan would of course do that, on the level of getting us a friendlier hearing! But it could only have a miseducational effect.

To make our assessment about the consequences to the labour movement if the imperialists “precipitously” pull out — that is “appeasement” claims Barry. Of whom? Of what? Of the status quo.

So to refuse to deny or be indifferent to the likely consequences of a “precipitous” destruction of the status quo is... appeasement... of the status quo. Unless we contradict the “status quo and demand its immediate destruction , irrespective of the consequences and of what, specifically, the immediate alternative to the status quo is, we are appeasing it? But then we — and Barry Finger — appease many, many status quos!

For example, not demanding the immediate abolition of the bourgeois police force — and never mind what replaces it, or that we are not yet in a position to provide a better alternative — is surely an appeasement of the status quo of the bourgeois state. Imagine! Not calling for “abolition of the police now” in the USA, where the police are as a rule a lot worse than their British counterparts (despite the general destruction of civil liberties and the increased arming of the police here)! Imagine an anarchist waxing indignant about it. You appease the filthy bourgeois police, the thugs, bullies, and racists who beat Rodney King and god knows how many others, away from the cameras! Shame on you! Cops out now!

The difference is in the foreign deployment of the troops — in someone else’s country? But one of the objections we would make to the “anti-war” movement is that it teaches young people indifference to all but their own British (or American) concerns - and never mind the consequences in Iraq. They operate double standards. At the root of that is the old invertebrate “liberal” idea that one cannot expect better from backward peoples, be they the people of Stalin’s Russia or those of Cuba today. Such “tolerance” overseas of what “we” would not want at home is something akin to racism. The “anti-war”, “pro-resistance” left is rife with it.

I think Barry Finger — his language and his theorising demonstrate it — has here climbed so far up the ladder of generality and abstraction that he can’t see the ground.

THE SHACHTMANITES

Barry Finger sees what we are saying and doing through the prism of old experience with the Shachtman group during the Vietnam war. He finds our reasoning “eerily familiar”.

“Namely, that the occupation provides the forces of Iraqi democracy with the necessary breathing spell during which it can reorganize and fortify itself for the democratic task of social reconstruction, which only it can see through to fruition”.

That may be Max Shachtman in his last years; but it isn’t AWL!

“By refusing to call for the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of all occupation forces, [AWL] is…. seeking a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism without actually advocating it. Can the AWL realistically expect to withstand the gravitational pull that such ideological compromises exerted over previous generations of socialist militants?”

The difference in approach between Barry and us is again clear here. Barry is heavily concerned with slogans, demands, and postures that will allow the revolutionary militants to resist hostile “gravitational pulls”.

You cannot be a Marxist and argue for a slogan on the grounds of its usefulness to you in resisting uncongenial pressures, apart from whether it makes sense in terms of reality. That way lies confusion, irresponsibility, and irrelevance.

Can we resist the “gravitational pull”? Cut through the superstitious dread, and what “pull” are we talking about here? The “pull” of admitting that the imperialists are not always and everywhere reactionary, or the most reactionary? That there are forces more reactionary — the Sunni supremacists and political Islamists, for example?

If we were to resist the “pull” of the powers that rule the world only by closing our eyes to such facts — if we felt obliged to pretend that everything about the bourgeoisie and bourgeois society is reactionary, and that there is nothing more reactionary in the political world — then we would be paying too high a price for anti-imperialist, or even anti-capitalist, virtue. We would also be setting ourselves up to collapse if and when reality more complex than we have recognised breaks through — a very common experience with naive revolutionaries.

The basic question here is one dealt with by Marx in the Critique of the Gotha Programme: is the whole of bourgeois society, apart from the working class, “one reactionary mass”. Marx rejected the idea:

“In the Communist Manifesto it is said: ‘Of all the classes that stand face to face with the bourgeoisie today, the proletariat alone is a really revolutionary class’... [But] the bourgeoisie is here conceived as a revolutionary class — as the bearer of large-scale industry — relative to the feudal lords and the lower middle class, who desire to maintain all social positions that are the creation of obsolete modes of production...”

The short answer to Barry Finger’s fears for our political future is that we feel no gravitational pull towards the bourgeoisie or its system as a result of recognising that this system, towards which we are mortally antagonistic, is not always and everywhere, and not in every single thing, only or simply reactionary, and that there are in some situations, more reactionary things.

Such things as the installation of bourgeois democracy in post-1945 western Europe and Japan have been done by the imperialistic bourgeoisie. If that was reactionary, then it was so only compared to what the working class could have achieved if better mobilised; but it was not so mobilised.

Recognising such facts does not affect our fundamental hostility to capitalism and to bourgeois society. It sharpens and sustains our hostility — hostility to what they really are, as they really are, unalloyed with the patently false idea that everything in the bourgeois-dominated world is today reactionary, or the most reactionary thing is possible.

APPARATUS MARXISM

One of the most politically corrupting and debilitating things on the left today is what might be called “apparatus Marxism” — the method of choosing and changing slogans in order to promote the growth and influence of the organisation.

In what way does what Barry says about the supposed need to adopt the slogan “Troops Out Now” in order to protect ourselves against the “gravitational pull” of uncongenial forces differ from apparatus Marxism? In principle I can’t see that it differs at all.

We cannot adopt a slogan concerning Iraq or any other political question for reasons of our own organisational self-promotion, or because it helps us resist a “gravitational pull”. Of course it is important to resist the gravitational pull of the bourgeoisie, but that is a matter of having an overall picture which determines our basic posture towards the ruling power even when it does, or may be doing, something that is, or may be, itself desirable.

While honestly evaluating and recording what is happening, we give the bourgeoisie no positive political support; we give them no credence or credit to go on and consistently do “what’s right”; we distinguish between our reasons for wanting, or assessing as positive, something that they are doing, and their own reasons, their overall programme, their “context” for it. In short we continually point out who and what they are, who and what we are, and what the working class must be.

Thus we create a rounded, realistic, revolutionary world view in those whom we reach. You cannot create or sustain a sharp proletarian class consciousness on the basis of falsely negative accounts and condemnations of what in a “good” moment the bourgeoisie may do, any more than you can do it by letting the “good” moment, real or mere hope, blur your overall picture of what they are.

Suppose, for example, that Bush and Blair were to carry through their “project” in Iraq and create a high-level functioning bourgeois democracy there? Would that change our fundamental view of what they are and what, mainly, they and those they serve do in the world? Would it inhibit us from encouraging and helping Iraqi workers to use the new bourgeois-democratic openings to fight against Bush and Blair?

Not at all. At most it would imply an amendment to our view of them to explain why “in this period” they are doing this relatively good work — exporting and expanding bourgeois democracy. Would that blot out our overall picture of what they do in terms of expanding and increasing exploitation? No.

Would it imply that we extend them credit to do equally good work of expanding bourgeois democracy somewhere else? Not for us, it wouldn’t. The same bourgeois-democratic USA and Britain that — for their own reasons, as Germany’s rivals — brought down Hitler, simultaneously, and for three decades, sustained Franco, the fascist who had smashed Spanish bourgeois democracy and the Spanish labour movement with the support of Hitler and Mussolini.

What the experience of a Bush or Blair carrying through some large reform that we want, or anyway see as progressive and important — again, say, establishing bourgeois democracy in Iraq — what that would do to our thinking, of course, would be to introduce the idea that they might now behave similarly elsewhere. That would not incline us where we had the option of independent action to rely on them. It would not inhibit us from telling people in other countries to which their attention was directed neither to trust them nor to rely on them.

Deciding slogans for Iraq not from the realities, but in order to “anchor” our own resistance to the “gravitational pull” of Bush and Blair, would be wrong in principle and, in its own way, disorienting. Any attitude that pushes the immediate fate of the Iraqi labour movement to the margin of our concerns, or leads us to fatalistically accept that the labour movement must be sacrificed to something else, something higher — anti-imperialism, or “self-determination for Iraq” understood as Troops Out Now and damn the consequences — any such attitude is radically disoriented.

Purely negative and purely “Yankophobic” anti-imperialism plays a terrible role on the left.

Marxists tell the truth of situations. We face the practical implications of our slogans candidly and squarely. We are concerned at all times with the labour movement and the working class. We have to have very special and very good reasons indeed to even seriously consider accepting something else as higher in the scale of things and more important than the fate of the working class. “Anti-imperialism”, or vicarious “national liberation”, is not from our point of view, a self-sufficient ideology. The problem with much of the “left” is that for them, it is.


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Sean on Excellent Form

The arguments put forwqard by Sean are extremely well put. The issues raised go far beyond the immediate situation in Iraq, and many if not most of the points made provide valuable lessons.

I was almost convined that demanding troops out now is wrong.

But I remain unconvinced for a number of reasons. I'll give just three.

The first one is more to question an argument raised by Sean that I was surprised he made.

"The Iraqi labour activists will just have to be stoical, bear their fate bravely, and understand that though we reach the same conclusions as the reactionary “anti-imperialists” shouting for “Troops Out Now” and thereby succouring the Saddamists and clerical fascists, our motive is different — to put ourselves in the best position to resist the “gravitational pull” of imperialism.

Brutus and Cassius both stab Caesar, but for different motives. If Brutus explains to the dying man that he was motivated by higher goals than those of the jealous Cassius and his friends, Caesar will understand and die happy…

I suggest that there must be something radically wrong either with comrade Finger’s reasoning or else with the “principles” that lead to these conclusions.

Sean has made the point many times before that we do not determine our position by putting a plus sign where our enemies place a minus sign. Surely, Sean is not saying that Barry must be wrong because he puts a plus sign where our enemies - the reactionary anti-imperialists - also put a plus sign!!! That Barry's position could only be correct, whatever his analysis leads him to, if he arrives at a minus sign.

The second reason is that taking Sean's absolutely correct argument that the determining factor is what best advances the cause of the Iraqi labour movement in the concrete situation I am led to the conclusion that that movement should be calling for the withdrawal of foreign troops, or at least the withdrawal of troops of the invading and occupying powers. Various polls have shown that even in Southern Iraq, where it is thought support for the occupation is greatest, a sizeable majority of the population believe it is perfectly reasonable to attack the occupying forces. Under, those conditions if I place myself in the position of an Iraqi trade unionist, and consider whether my chances of gaining an audience amongst other Iraqi workers and attracting them to the Labour Movement are enhanced by taking up a position in opposition to an occupying army that daily attacks ordinary Iraqi workers, or of arguing that those same occupying forces were the saviours of Iraqi workers, I feel I would have no difficulty in arriving at a position of opposition to the occupation.

Thirdly, I absolutely agree that socialists can support imperialism if it is fighting a war against a more reactionary enemy, but the reality in Iraq is that it is not just the Islamists that the US and UK are fighting - far from it they are helping to train those forces to take over the police and military - it is the Iraqi people as a whole, as the new admission by the US that it used chemical weapons in the attack on Fallujah shows. Faced with an increasing death toll the US in particular has kept its troops off he streets as much as possible, and relies when it can on the more indiscriminate use of aerial or artillery bombardment unconcerned at civilian casualties. Even Johns Hopkins University body count puts the number of Iraqi civilians killed at well over 100,000.

Only if we consider virtually the entire Iraqi population as reactionary vis a vis imperialism would this argument stand.

The reality is that opposition to the war in the US with Clinton coming out against it, and Bush increasingly embattled even by his own Republican Party, looking to their fortunes in the upcoming mid term lections, with Colin Powell's Chief of Staff openly talking about the way a cabal organised the war etc., the US will be pulling out sooner rather than later.

If I were a trade unionist in Iraq I would consider my chances of survival after that pull-out far greater had I been an active opponent of the occupation, especially if I looked at the experience of the attitude to collaborators with occupation forces in every other conflict.

Arthur Bough


Barry v. Sean

I find, as a social democrat in Canada, Sean's rebuttal to be completely unconvincing, as well as your typically overly long piece. I think it ignores the domestic day to day political situation inside the United States after Hurricane Katrina and Hitchens' defense of Bush, where a troops out now slogan would have resonance, and which I am sure played some role in Barry's analysis as it should. As for the part about Alan Johnson (or Hitchens Mark Two), perhaps the AWL should be taken at its word but it is revealing that people like Prof. Norman Geras, a strong supporter of the war, reference this site favourably. I think the average unaffiliated reader cannot be blamed for having a certain amount of skepticism and the onus is on Sean to demonstrate the anti-war and anti-capitalist values of the AWL. This long rambling article simply does not convince just as the rants on this web site about Tony Cliff's grumpiness at meetings in 1971 similarly fail to convince.

Ravi Malhotra
Ottawa-Centre New Democratic Party (for ID purposes only)


The situation in the USA?

Ok, let's say Troops Out Now plays well in the USA. But, Ravi, you don't comment at all on what the slogan means in Iraq!

You don't dispute that the slogan means the destruction of the Iraqi labour movement. But you seem to say that's all right as long as it gives us a catchy bit of agitation in the USA.

To respond to Arthur: to refuse to say Troops Out Now is not at all to support the troops, or to want to persuade Iraqi workers that they should not oppose them..

We oppose all bourgeois governments. We do not always and in all situations raise the slogan "Bring the government down now!" We do not raise when the force most likely to bring down the government "now" is fascistic.

We build the labour movement, or do what we can to help building the labour movement, so that it can be an independent force against both the fascistic forces and the incumbent government.

What it means practically in Iraq is what Yanar Mohammed said to me in an interview a few months ago, explaining what she sees as the policy of the Worker-communist Party of Iraq.

We do not try to add strength to the campaign of the Sunni-supremacist "resistance", the force which might conceivably throw out the Americans and British "now". We oppose them fiercely.

We campaign against the US/UK occupation by denouncing it politically, mobilising against it, etc., while always also denouncing the Islamists and Ba'thists.

We work towards the US/UK being thrown out by a workers' movement - or by a democratic movement in which the working-class has some weight. And that, sadly but realistically, is not "now".

Martin Thomas


Iraq or USA centered considerations ?

I think the great merit of the AWL approach is the central concern for the ways in which the people of Iraq can progress and the emphasis you place on support for progressive forces on the ground.

I am sick and tired of being told that the most important issue is to give Bush and Blair a bloody nose....

Of course it might be that keeping one's thinking firmly rooted in the interests of the Iraqi people could lead one to decide that the key strategic issue is removing the role of the US administration. Does that imply immediate withdrawal as your central demand...I don't know, I would like to see more debate..

As to those who cite supporters of the war who approve of the AWL, that is a real red herring, the AWL bears no responsibility for that...although I would like to throw something into the ring...many people supported the war, for very 'good' reasons. They were wrong, but some of them were no doubt aware there were risks and there is no good in simply re-running the arguements on a we told you so basis. The issue for me is not whether Norman Geras and others who took a pro-war position were wrong about the war but are they progressive forces generally.

Does anyone really think opposition to the war is enough to turn the swp or George Galloway into progressive forces ? The swp are now well off the map, rapidly travelling in a deeply reactionary direction.However, their present positions are entirely consistent with their behaviour over many years. As Robin Blackburn said of the Labour Party at some point in the dim and distant past.... ' Let it bleed'.

I also think its time the left started to shake off the notion that it is always on principle wrong to support intervention, unless it is on some pure level. What lessons can we draw from Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia, Tanzania's invasion of Uganda for example. Life is never simple.


Rant about Tony Cliff's grumpiness in 1971?

"The rants on this web site about Tony Cliff's grumpiness at meetings in 1971..."? Where? I've just done a search, and the only reference I can find to Cliff at meetings in 1971 was his move in June that year to switch SWP/IS to a "keep Britain out of Europe" position from its old "In or out, the fight goes on". Cliff wasn't grumpy about that, as far as I recall. The issue was an important one, and is still important. The episode seems important to me, too, since Cliff's argument was not that he had discovered some merit in keeping Britain aloof, or some special horror in European capitalist integration, previously unseen, but simply that the "keep Britain out" line would enable SWP/IS to "vote with the left".

Maybe it's relevant to this Iraq debate, then. Should we decide our slogans on Iraq on what will make it easiest for us to chime in with the broad left around us in the USA and Britain, or on the realities of Iraq?

Martin Thomas


writing styles

The point about 1971 I thought was fairly obvious. It was meant in a metaphorical way, not in this literal sense although I am glad Martin T. managed to actually find some reference which only underscores my point. The fact is everything written by Sean everywhere is overly long and has this bizarre tone to it that discredits the AWL to normal people not trained in Third Camp discourse. The debate about the class nature of Afghanistan (to use 00 speak, dude who cares) is a prime example. The AWL may or may not be right (I think it's very obvious Barry is right and I remain unconvinced that most Iraqis do not want troops out now regardless of whether they are shia or sunni; moreover class politics in the US matters tremendously) on this question of slogans but how one debates matters. And Sean's tone in general is extremely off putting, self-indulgent and gratuitous (the long piece about Cliff's life that begins with a story about false headlines in a newspaper for instance). And therefore counter-productive.

Ravi


Example

I'd ask comrades to imagine themselves in the following scenario. The scene could be in Iraq now, or Britain under similar circumstances if that could be imagined.

At a workplace there are three people A,B and C. A is a trade union militant trying to organise workers in the plant. B is a religious fanatic, what might be described as a clerical-fascist, and supporter of a religious militia engaged in attacks on occupying forces. C is an ordinary worker trying to get on with their life, and considering joining the union because they recognise the daily problems any worker has to endure in the workplace.

One morning C arrives in a state of some distress. The night before her home has been the subject of attack. First an artillery shell landed just outside, destroying much of the building, debris and shrapnel badly injured one of her children, and killed the other. Shortly afterwards occupation soldiers rampaged into the house and dragged her husband away on the mistaken belief he had been shooting at them.

A tries to console her, and explains that much as he understands her grief and anger she should not forget who the real enemy are - the clerical fascist militias, who at some point in the future will destroy the labour movement he and his comrades are trying to build. Much as she might desire to kill the occupiers and drive them from her country, she should accept that they are fulfilling a useful function in controlling the religious fundamentalists.

B. sees his opportunity and offers his sympathy to C. He says, that now perhaps she will understand why he and his brothers have been telling her that the socialists are more concerned with their own agenda than with the immediate needs of the people. He says she is quite right in wanting the infidel forces to be killed and thrown out of the country, and if the militia can be built strong enough not only will they offer defence against attacks like the one she and her family suffered, but the will kick the occupiers out.

C. weighs up the arguments. Much as she is attracted to the need for a union to defend her interests as a worker, her first priority is to ensure that she is not the next person to be killed by a shell hitting her house, or to be dragged away in the middle of the night. She dislikes the idea of her rights as a worker and a woman being attacked by the religious doctrinaires, but that is something to deal with in the future. She agrees that the religious fundamentalists are a danger, but then the occupation forces themselves rather than fighting these forces are in fact in league with factions of them, helping them to form a government, training them as those very police forces and soldiers that in the future will be the ones who break the heads of the workers, and those fighting for human rights. The occupation forces are an enemy on two fronts.

If only the socialists and trade unionists would organise militias and fight for the removal of theoccupation forces now she considers her dilemma would be over. But as they do not she decides to deal with her immediate problem and signs up to help the religious militia putting off the fight against them until the future.

A is dissapointed but consoles himself with the thought he has done the right thing and that there are other workers. The problem is that many ordinary workers don't see things as he does, and C's experience is not isolated. More and more of them ignore the trade unions and the socialists as irrelevant to their immediate problem.

The words of the song reverberate in their head - "You'll get pie in the sky when you die."

Sean's argument is really an extension of Lenin's naive cocnept of revolutionary defeatism - in this instance the main enemy at home is the religious militias. The concept is confused and confusing. Lenin could not even get the Bolsheviks to implement it, and no workers in history have acted in accordance with it. That in itself for historical materialists should tell us something.

I discussed it here.

Revolutionary Defeatism and Anti-Imperialism

One other thing I am confused with is this. The AWL's predecessor Socialist Organiser argued quite rightly for the immediate withdrawal of Soviet forces from Afghanistan. That demand was absolutely correct because although the Comintern's Theses on the National and Colonial Question called for a war against Pan-Islamism I don't think they meant an invasion of other countries and a war literally fought with tanks, but an ideological war at most given one of Lenin's nudges. But on the level of the discussion of Iraq the USSR were actually engaged also in an ideological war against Islam in Afghanistan, did establish schools and extend women's rights etc.

Whilst the US and UK say they want those things in Iraq the fact is that they have not insisted on them. Unlike the establsihment of liberal democratic secular governments set up in Germany and Japan after the second world war they have left the Islamic dominated Governing Council to establish its own constitution, and train the forces of these Islamic parties to become the new state apparatus.

If it was right to call for the immediate withdrawal of Soviet imperialism from Afghanistan which was in albeit typical bureaucratic fashion waging a war against reactionary Islam, why is it not right to call fort he immediate withdrawal of US forces from Iraq when those forces are in fact far from waging a war against it, but in cahoots with sections of it.

Arthur Bough


Troops out now?

Surely there are three things which mark Iraq out as distinct from Afghanistan, and to see it in terms of an imperialist power vs Islamists is too simplistic.

1. There is a labour movement in Iraq. Whatever the programmatic niceties, the existence of this movement is the single most important fact, not only in Iraq but throughout the region. It is the first significant independent workers' movement in the Arab east for forty years. If the consequence of the application of our programme is likely to be the destruction of this movement, our programme must be wrong. At the very least, our priority should be the interests of this movement, not the purity of our programme.

2. The US occupation of Iraq is brutal, but simply not on the same scale as the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan - which caused millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands, or more, of deaths, and really was, clearly, a war between Moscow and the vast majority of at least the rural population of Afghanistan.

3. - which is connected to the first two: for all its innumerable defects, there is the beginnings of a bourgeois democracy now in Iraq. This was not so in Afghanistan, and inconceivable as a consequence of USSR occupation. It is, of course, the condition for the emergence of the labour movement. It is not a matter of heaping praise on the US, or whatever, but of recognising the facts.

It follows from these considerations, I think, that we should be very careful with slogans which sound radical but imply, in fact, reactionary results.


Imperialism - The Highest Promoter of Democracy.

“Surely there are three things which mark Iraq out as distinct from Afghanistan, and to see it in terms of an imperialist power vs Islamists is too simplistic.”

I agree. I only dealt with that aspect because it was one of the bases on which Sean justified not demanding the immediate withdrawal of troops i.e. imperialism can be progressive if it is fighting against pre-capitalist forces such as clerical fascism. I merely pointed out that on that score the USSR actually was fighting clerical fascists in Afghanistan, was promoting, women’s rights, establishing schools etc., whereas in Iraq the US is training the clerical fascists to take over the state, subletting the internement and torture of Sunni Arabs to them, whilst playing off one group against another in order to establsih the kind of conditions which best enable it to promote those elements most conducive to its interests. Sean’s argument on this count, therefore, I do not think stands up. The greatest victims of the occupation are not the Iraqi clerical fascists, but Iraqi civians that basically are treated as collateral damage, and the clerical fighters in that part of the “resistance” made up of foreign fighters whose interests and objectives are at odds with the interests of all the various factions contained within the ranks of the Shia clerical fascists.

”1. There is a labour movement in Iraq. Whatever the programmatic niceties, the existence of this movement is the single most important fact, not only in Iraq but throughout the region. It is the first significant independent workers' movement in the Arab east for forty years. If the consequence of the application of our programme is likely to be the destruction of this movement, our programme must be wrong. At the very least, our priority should be the interests of this movement, not the purity of our programme.”

I agree completely, but I would argue that all experience shows that a Labour Movement that does not deal with the immediate political issues facing the working class such as an armed occupation of its country dooms itself to insignificance. The way for that movement to grow both in size, and political maturity is to put itself at the head of the movement to throw out the occupation. The Iraqi Labour Movement is in the main calling for the immediate withdrawal of troops and we should support that demand.

”2. The US occupation of Iraq is brutal, but simply not on the same scale as the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan - which caused millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands, or more, of deaths, and really was, clearly, a war between Moscow and the vast majority of at least the rural population of Afghanistan.”

At what point does a qualitative difference exist? If the number of casualties in Iraq rises to 200,000, half a million, a million. Will it only then become reactionary?

”3. - which is connected to the first two: for all its innumerable defects, there is the beginnings of a bourgeois democracy now in Iraq. This was not so in Afghanistan, and inconceivable as a consequence of USSR occupation. It is, of course, the condition for the emergence of the labour movement. It is not a matter of heaping praise on the US, or whatever, but of recognising the facts.”

Quite right, the Soviet Union did not create a bourgeois democracy in Afghanistan. Nor could it have done even if it wanted to, because Afghanistan is a pre-capitalist society. The US and EU have not created a bourgeois democracy in Afghanistan either for the same reason. They have created a militarised enclave around Kabul, and they have been able to conduct pretty meaningless elections, but the vast majority of the country remains under the real control of warlords.

Let us assume that the US and UK occupation of Iraq was actually motivated by the best of intentions. Let us assume that imperialism set out to improve the lives of Iraqis rather than set out to further its own interests, and to establish a political regime in Iraq which is best suited to that end. What conclusions can we draw from that.

Consider a similar situation. Nazi Germany smashed the Labour movement and destroyed boyrgeois democracy. A condition of the development of the German Labour Movement according to your argument, therefore, was the re-establishment of bourgeois democracy. That was the proclaimed aim of the Allies. To use your argument, socialists then whilst not actually calling on the Allies to invade Germany, should, quietly behind their hands, secretly hoped they would in order that bourgeois democracy would be restored. Whilst not actually being honest enough to follow through the logic of their argument that bourgeois democratic capitalism was a lesser evil than fascist capitalism and call for the support of the Allies they would refrain from demanding an immediate end to the war.

“It follows from these considerations, I think, that we should be very careful with slogans which sound radical but imply, in fact, reactionary results.”

I agree, and we should also be wary of framing our demands coloured by our own defeatism and pessimism for the labour movement flowing from our current weakness, demands which end up telling workers to depend not on their own strength, but on the good grace of one section of their class enemies.

Arthur Bough


No apologies for occupation

Arthur in his second comment 'Example', I believe, misrepresents our position. Our position is certainly not the 'A' character who in the face of the arbitrary and continual brutalities of the occupation forces gives a lecture on the need 'not to forget who the real enemy is', the Islamist militias. We gave no such de facto apologies for Abu Ghraib, Falluja, nor would we any other minor atrocity, hypothetical or not. We do not take sides with, defend or support the imperialist power. Never!

Barry doesn't accuse us of that in any case. But he does fall prey to the argument that we need to take sides, the 'anti-imperialist' side, although not explicitly. He uses 'gravitational pull' to describe the dangers of appearing to be associated with imperialism by wanting the Iraqi labour movement to make, as he puts it, 'a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism'.

I find Barry's use of the singular 'crime' a bit strange here.

There are many crimes of imperialism in Iraq, their brutal techniques of war, their use of torture, their acceptance of sectarian Islamist forces running most of Iraq. There will be further crimes I am sure, when the US calculate their withdrawal timetable. I have no doubt they will withdraw in a way that does maximum damage to any movement we would wish to see built. That is a movement that would create a society and, more worryingly from the US point of view, an economy that is genuinely under the democratic control of the Iraqi people.

That is why we can never defend imperialism, or ever support it.

But imperialism's crime, or crimes, go along with actions that can be exploited by Iraqi workers. Postures like claiming to support democratic secular rights, trade union rights etc. We know these are hypocritical statements, and at best half-hearted actions, on the US's part but are these not 'gains' for Iraqi workers. Should we not want this 'gain' of organising politically, should we reject it even, because it comes as part of Barry's 'crime of imperialism'.

Barry's phrase 'gravitational pull' is intended I think to be a cautionary remarks about a possible evolution of the AWL. I think he is wrong, we were saying very similar things about Ireland for a decade and more, with people around us denouncing us as pro-imperialist. In the end though, it is the 'Troops Out Now', pro-Sinn Fein left who ended up disoriented and without working clas bearings. Not us.

Barry's warnings may be valid for some. People who like to play games of diplomacy, or pretend to be the 'inspector generals of history', bringing an imperialist army here, approving a treaty there, acting as the advisor for this or that bourgeois politician; such people do exist and are in danger, if they aren't there already, of being no more than impotent satellites around a far weightier imperialist force. These people, such as much of the journalistic pro-war left and our, and Barry's, former comrade Alan Johnson, who look to imperialist governments both those of Blair AND Bush, to be reliable agents of democratic transformation.

If the US and UK do plan an early withdrawal, even if it causes more chaos and terror for our people, the Iraqi working people, we won't say 'please stay longer'. We will say that their action fits entirely with their central objectives, to which any democratic gains for Iraqis were only incidental. We will say even more urgently 'give aid to secular Iraqi worker organisations' as the only force that can save Iraq from disaster. And we will direct that appeal not to imperialist governments but to the international working class movement.

The dangers of the 'gravitational pull' comes from forgetting that the only genuine agency of democratic change can be the working class movement.


The Error was Oversimplification

I think I agree, Pete, that I was probably unfair to the AWL's position. I was not trying to misrepresent the position, the error was oversimplification in trying to make a point. In fact, I could have given the same example, but with the woman worker's house being destroyed by a Sunni militia attack, rather than a US military attack. All, however, that that would prove is that there are more than one set of reactionary forces at work in the country, competing centres of power, and that workers in one particular area will look to militia within their own area for defence against attacks from elsewhere - in fact, much as Catholic workers looked to the Provos for defence against attacks by Protestant militias in the absence of a clear independent working class alternative defence.

Of course, in ireland, where the British Army did at first provide some defence for Catholic communities, they too were seen as saviours, but that situation soon changed. In Ireland, the British troops have remained for a very long time, but it did not provide a breathing space for the labour movement to develop as an alternative to the Provos or the Protestant paramilitaries, and in Ireland the Labour Movement began from a much better position than in Iraq. On the contrary, the continued presence of British troops and the failure of the Labour Movement to deal with that, in an attempt to pretend they could continue business as usual, was precisely the reason the provos and protestant paramilitaries grew, because they were seen as providing the answers to the immediate problems of workers. Workers in Iraq cannot demand the immediate withdrawal of the Islamic militia because they are Iraqis - any more than Catholic workers could call for the withdrawal of Protoestant paramilitary organisation - they can only build their own militia and defence forces in opposition to them. They can of course, demand the withdrawal of foreign Islamic fighters, and I would raise that as a demand alongside the demand for the immediate withdrawal of occupation troops. I would also raise the demand for the support of workers militia from other countries to defend workers communities against both the occupation and the Islamists, along the lines of the International Brigade in Spain.

Having made all those provisos, however, the example was intended to be a simplification to draw out a simple dynamic. Yes, I accept that the AWL criticises the occupation forces for all of the bad things they do, that they opposed the invasion and oppose the occupation in words, and in deeds through trying to build the Iraqi Labour Movement, which, if successful, would be the best means by which the occupation could be removed, but let us take this into consideration and change the words then that A gives in consolation to C.

"Yes I grieve with you for your loss, I condemn the occupation forces for their actions in the greatest possible terms, I will publicise your case for you and assist you in any way possible to make clear the reactionary nature of the occupation."

But then when C asks, "And will you help me to seek the immediate withdrawal of those forces so that no other workers suffer as I have done, will you help establish a militia to fight against those forces and drive them out of our country, and to defend our communities against them, here and now?"

A is forced to declare, "No, I declare my opposition to the occupation, I am prepared to put into words my condemnation of it, but in my heart of hearts I want them to stay because I see the Islamists as a bigger danger."

In reality A's position becomes worse were I C because what they have basically admitted is that they are dishonest, they proclaim one thing, but hope for another. As I put it in the post I linked to they are like the person who proclaims their belief that superstition is bunk, but checks their horoscope every day.

Of course, the reality is that most of the unions in Iraq do call for Troops Out Now even though what each of them mean by that is different.

Perhaps, A's response should be something like. "I sympathise with your loss, and grieve with you. The occupation is thoroughly reactionary and must be removed as soon as possible. We as workers must organise and demand its immediate withdrawal, and we must organise our own workers militia and defence squads to protect us both from the occupation forces, and from the militia of the Islamists of all factions who are as much our enemies as the occupation forces. We cannot rely on the occupation forces to protect us from the Islamic militia nor on the Islamic militia to protect us from the occupation forces, we can only rely on ourselves, but in order to be able to be strong enough to defend ouselves against the Islamists, and to throw out the occupation we must proclaim ourselves the most committed fighters for the immediate removal of the occupation. We are not strong enough to achieve that now, but the more people like you that join us the stronger we become, the better able will we be to not only throw out the occupation, but to protect our interests as workers.

Join us in that fight for the immediate removal of the occupation, and avenge your loss. Join us in building our Labour Movement for the advancement of our rights as workers, and human beings against those that would roll them back in the camp of Islamic reaction, and of imperialism."
Arthur Bough


"Out Now" is a necessity

I still agree with Barry Finger against the AWL position. There are strong and growing indications that the majority of Iraqis oppose the U.S. presence and that continuing the occupation will lead to the _strengthening_ of reactionary forces. Only an end to the occupation can undermine support for the violent insurgency and create the political space that could allow Iraqi democratic, secularist and trade union movements—-the ones the AWL and Barry and I support--to grow. Calling for immediate withdrawal is also the only realistic lever the peace movement has in moving the Bush regime to even accept a phased withdrawal under international auspices, which those leery of a quick exit say they prefer.

U.S. Labor Against the War manages to both support Iraqi unions and demand "Out Now." Why is it so hard for the AWL to do the same? To the extent that Iraqi unions don't support "Out Now," they are, I think, in error, in thinking they can buy time to build industrial democracy on the point of an American bayonet.


Worth a read

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=9162


Why is 'Out Now' a necessity?

I accept everything that USRed says in this comment except

Calling for immediate withdrawal is also the only realistic lever the peace movement has in moving the Bush regime to even accept a phased withdrawal under international auspices, which those leery of a quick exit say they prefer.
and
U.S. Labor Against the War manages to both support Iraqi unions and demand "Out Now." Why can't the AWL?

Our slogans aren't reformist bargaining tools, 'we want £6, so we'll demand £8 an hour'; 'we want eventual withdrawal, so we'll demand immediate withdrawal'.

Nor is it a credible argument to say 'Most working class opponents of the occupation are prepared to say 'Out Now', so why don't we go along with it.'

Our demands are there to organise, to put forward objectives that working class people will see express their interests and mobilise for them.

OK, sometimes people will mobilise behind not very good slogans and I would have less problems with 'Troops Out Now' if there weren't so many idiotic apologists for Islamist sectarian chaos who used that slogan. (Maybe in the US it is different.) And I would be less bothered by this issue if it wasn't easier for supporters of the occupation to justify their stance by saying 'well these people who call for 'troops out now' don't criticise Islamist reaction and sectarian terror and are prepared to hand Iraq over to these forces'.

The rest of your contribution is saying that Iraqis are opposed to the occupation, see it as contributing to the growth of Islamism, want to oppose it etc. etc. We agree! No-one in the AWL is saying that we want to ask for the occupation to continue, we want to end it, but by a force that will liberate workers and not one that will imprison them under a more terrible regime.


Is There Some Movement Here?

"Our slogans aren't reformist bargaining tools, 'we want £6, so we'll demand £8 an hour'; 'we want eventual withdrawal, so we'll demand immediate withdrawal'."

I agree.

"Nor is it a credible argument to say 'Most working class opponents of the occupation are prepared to say 'Out Now', so why don't we go along with it.'"

I agree.

"Our demands are there to organise, to put forward objectives that working class people will see express their interests and mobilise for them."

I agree, they should, but the main demand of Iraqi workers is the immediate withdrawal of the occupation. How can you claim to put forward demands aimed to mobilise them when you do not put forward that fundamental demand for mobuilising the Iraqi working class to meet its immediate needs. The Iraqi workers call for the immediate withdrawal of the occupation, and we should support them. Refusal to do so seems to be putting a minus sign where the SWP puts a plus sign.

"I would have less problems with 'Troops Out Now' if there weren't so many idiotic apologists for Islamist sectarian chaos who used that slogan. (Maybe in the US it is different.) And I would be less bothered by this issue if it wasn't easier for supporters of the occupation to justify their stance by saying 'well these people who call for 'troops out now' don't criticise Islamist reaction and sectarian terror and are prepared to hand Iraq over to these forces'"

Why should our position and slogans be dictated to us by what other people say. We don't put a plus where they put a minus just to be different. Let them do their analysis and come to their conclusions, set out their slogans, and we will do the same. Our slogans and position should flow from what is in the interests of the Iraqi workers not what distinguishes us from the slogans of other groups and organisations in Britain or elsewhere.

It is necessary to emphasise not only the opposition to the occupation but also the opposition to Islamic reaction. For example, we should raise the demand for the removal of all foreign fighters not just the withdrawal of the occupation. We should call for Iran to keep its nose out of Iraq. We should call on a truly independent working class movement of internatrional solidarity to come to the aid of the Iraqi working class to assist in its development and protection against attacks from Islam, and from imperialism.

Arthur Bough


Clarification

You say: 'Why should our position and slogans be dictated to us by what other people say' in response to my 'supporters of the occupation ...justify their stance by saying 'well these people who call for 'troops out now' don't criticise Islamist reaction and sectarian terror and are prepared to hand Iraq over to these forces'
Well when those who argue in favour of the occupation tell the truth (on that issue), it would be crazy to ignore it. Our slogans aren't everything, but they should try to effectively communicate our analysis and not the irresponsible, toytown 'anti-imperialism' of so much that claims to be the anti-war left.


Communication

I was more focussed on the first part of the quote where you say,

"I would have less problems with 'Troops Out Now' if there weren't so many idiotic apologists for Islamist sectarian chaos who used that slogan."

And where you seem to be saying fairly openly that perhaps you would have no objection to using "Troops Out Now" as a slogan were it not for the fact that the SWP were using it. In what way then is the determination of slogans determined by what meets the immediate needs of the Iraqi working class rather than the need to have clear water between the AWL and SWP here in Britain.

I agree that it is necessary to make clear that in raising the demand "Troops Out Now" it is necessary to distinguish yourself from the SWP and others that simply mean support Islamic reaction. But is there anyone out there that reads the AWL's material who does not already have a pretty clear picture that the AWL disagrees with the SWP, that the AWL is even more hostile to clerical fascism than it is to imperialism, and that consequently when it raises the demand for Troops Out Now it certainly does not mean support for Islamic reaction, does not mean handing over the government to them, but is a rallying cry for the working class to mobilise its forces to bring that about, and a precondition for the working class being succesful in achieving that goal is that it becomes a much stronger force than it is now. If anyone out there does not realise that then they must have been very very selective in which bits of your material they have read.

Moreover, in order to make the position clearer, and in any case as demands I believe should be raised if I were an Iraqi Trade Unionist or socialist I would be raising demands not just for the immediate withdrawal of US and UK troops, but the immediate withdrawal of foreign fighters such as Al Zaqarwi, demanding that Iran keep its hands of Iraq, and would be demanding that the Labour Movement internationally organise not just economic, poltical and moral support but physical support too as part of the task of rebuilding an independent working class movement internationally capable of defending itself rather than relying on imperialism or other hostile forces to fight its battles.

Arthur Bough


Slogans are to introduce as well as summarise our ideas

..is there anyone out there that reads the AWL's material who does not already have a pretty clear picture that the AWL disagrees with the SWP, that the AWL is even more hostile to clerical fascism than it is to imperialism'?
Probably not. If people, saw 'Troops Out Now' above one of our articles though, they might scratch their head, as I would, because it doesn't really match the rest of the analysis or programme we advocate.
But headlines in papers and slogans on marches are intended primarily for those who won't immediately read the content, who might presume that 'Troops Out Now' means as others mean it, and is in my view implicit in it. 'Victory to the Resistance'.
Our opposition to imperialism and Islamic reaction are better communicated without the 'out Now' slogan.
Going to have duck out of this debate for a couple of days. I hope other AWL supporters will have the opportunity of taking up these issues for a while.
Cheers
Pete


Does it Matter?

"But headlines in papers and slogans on marches are intended primarily for those who won't immediately read the content, who might presume that 'Troops Out Now' means as others mean it, and is in my view implicit in it. 'Victory to the Resistance'."

I am prompted to wonder who the people are that you think pick up a copy of Solidarity or any other left-wing paper and only read the headlines. Have Sun readers sudenly en masse changed their affiliation?

But in any case does what you say matter on two counts. First of all we are discussing what demands are relevant to building the Labour Movement in Iraq not what some passer by on a demonstration in the US or Britain might think. Secondly, if this person that simply observes the slogans on the march is going to become involved in actually doing anything - and if they aren't then what impression they get doesn't really matter - then won't they actually in the process go beyond the mere slogans and think about what each organisation means by them.

Finally, it was not beyond the wit of man to produce slogans which summed up opposition to both the invasion and to Saddam to be used on placards. Is it not within the realms of possibility to combine the slogan for Troops Out Now with slogans for the defeat of the Islamic militias, for the Removal of Foreign Fighters, and For Defence of Workers and Women's Rights?

Arthur Bough


Where and how is this demand to be Used and by whom

Who are we talking about in relation to the demand for Troops Out Now, where and how is it to be raised?

If we are talking about a demand we think socialists in Iraq should use, then already they are doing so, and as Martin sets out above in his comments relating to the interview with Yanar Mohammed of the WPI the way they are raising it is the way I have discussed it i.e. it is not something they pretend the workers movement can achieve here and now, but a demand which reflects the aspirations of Iraqi workers, a necessary slogan around which to build the mobilisation of the Iraqi workers, that prevents that territory be left clear for the Islamists to hijack for themselves. I doubt whteher any workers in Iraq coming into contact with a demand for Troops Out Now would have any illusion that those in the Iraqi Labour Movement raising this demand were in reality calling for support for the Islamic fighters or parties of any description, and any that were would soon be disabused of that misconception once they looked at everything else those militants were saying and doing.

If we are talking about this demand being raised in the British Labour Movement, the question arises where and how this demand would be raised. I doubt that any AWL supporter is going to put a resolution to their Trade Union or other labour Movement organisation demanding Troops Out Now, and when they come to move it simply stand up shout "Troops Out Now" and then sit down again. They will explain exactly what they mean i.e. along the same lines as it is being used in Iraq. That what we mean is that although we recognise that the Labour Movement in Iraq is not strong enough to bring an end to the occupation now the demand represents our commitment to build a Labour Movement that is strong enough to achieve that, as quickly as possible. That the Labour Movement here has a responsibility to assist them in that development, and to provide whatever help it can including if possible defence against attacks either from the occupation forces or the Islamists. BUt in putting forward this resolution in this manner it is made clear that the question of defence against those attacks from Islamists is one which is for workers internationally to take responsibility for in all available forms, not one which we subcontract to imperialism. The demand neither here nor in Iraq is a plea to Imperialism to heed our wishes - that would indeed be futile - but a demand in both instances around which to mobilise workers both here and in Iraq, a call for workers internationally to make solidarity and independent working class action a reality by coming to the defence of their comrades in Iraq. Not a demand to stand on its own, not a replacement for action on the day to day workplace and economic issues that affect workers in Iraq, but a necessary demand to reflect the aspirations of Iraqi workers to have their country back as a fundamental requirement for advancing their cause.

Arthur Bough


It is, indeed, different in the U.S.

The majority of people in the U.S. demanding "Out Now" have no sympathy for the Baathist/political Islamist resistance. It's only groups like the Cliffite ISO and the neo-Stalinist Workers World Party that do that.


The problem is rhetoric

Arthur says
C asks, "And will you help me to seek the immediate withdrawal of those forces so that no other workers suffer as I have done, will you help establish a militia to fight against those forces and drive them out of our country, and to defend our communities against them, here and now?"

A is forced to declare, "No, I declare my opposition to the occupation, I am prepared to put into words my condemnation of it, but in my heart of hearts I want them to stay because I see the Islamists as a bigger danger."

NO! We shouldn't say that, we don't want the troops to stay! We want popular democratic non-sectarian working class forces to defend their communities, but probably as least as much from the actions of sectarian Islamist militias as the occupying forces. Few Iraqis either in your hypothetical situation or in reality are unconcerned by that. In reply to the hypothetical request for immediate withdrawal, I think we should say 'troops should be withdrawn as soon as we can make them, not in a way that will surrender our communities to the rule of Islamist terror. We cannot get the troops out and defned our communities without building our own democratic militias.'

You are closer with:
A's response should be something like. "I sympathise with your loss, and grieve with you. The occupation is thoroughly reactionary and must be removed as soon as possible. etc.

Totally agree!

But elsewhere you say about that Iraqis should 'demand the immediate withdrawal' and 'throw out' the occupation whilst they should 'defend (them)selves against the Islamists'. But the Islamists are not a bunch of misbehaving teenagers on some council estate, they are contenders for state power, or at least power in dismembered bits of the Iraqi state.

Whenever, and however, democratic secular forces based on the working class can organise some degree of control over parts of Iraq they should do that - against occupation forces and sectarian militias.

'Troops out now' is as inaccurate a reflection of that viewpoint as 'defeat Islamism tomorrow'. Both are rhetoric.


But Often Rhetoric is Fundamental to Organisation.

I agree, Pete, calling for Troops Out Now is pure rhetoric considering the ability of the Iraqi Labour Movement to achieve it at this exact moment. Absolutley, 100% spot on. Just as when my children were still crawling and I encouraged them to try to stand up and walk I told them they could do it knowing full well they might fall down before they got to the second step. That was rhetoric too. Its called optimism and encouragement, the opposite of pessimism and defeatism.

The provos as an insignificant force in Northern Ireland had absolutely no chance of throwing out the might of the British Army, yet they made the demand for that woithdrawal central to their slogans. In so doing and organising the working class Catholic Communities to that end, and to defend themselves against attacks by protestant militias they grew rapidly. Indeed, despite the existence of a large organised Labour Movement which by and large ignored the question of the occupation they grew from insignifiance to dominance. That is the reverse of the situation in Iraq now

We can learn thatlesson or ignore it.

Arthur Bough


Rhetoric Through History

When Spartacus decided to throw off his chains and set his face against the Roman Empire the idea of slavery was taken for granted. Even the slaves saw it as a natural order of things. When he called on them to join him in overthrowing the Empire he had not a hope in hell of achieving that goal as an individual. The call was pure rhetoric. But through that rhetoric, by setting a goal which not only met the needs of the slaves as opposed to simply asking for more food or better conditions, he managed to mobilise the slaves into a magnificent army that could win their freedom.

At least that's how Kirk Douglas played it.

When Karl Marx at the end of the Communist manifesto raised the demand "Workers of the World Unite" he had not a hope in hell of realising that demand any time soon. It was pure rhetoric. But it was the kind of rhetoric that helped mobilise workers into exactly the kind of struggle Marx had called them to.

He could have called on them to improve their conditions, but not so much as it threatened a return of the old feudal rulers, but Marx managed to deal with that threat too.

When in April 1917 Lenin called for "All Power to the Soviets" even his own Party thought he had gone mad, the Bolsheviks were an insignificant force. The bourgeois revolution was threatened by reaction in the form of the old Tsarist generals and other fascistic elements like the Black Hundreds, all of which were far more powerful than the tiny Bolshevik organisation.

Lenin's slogan was pure rhetoric.

But it was the kind of rhetoric that turned things round, which transformed the Bolsheviks from being an insignifant organisation, to being the leaders of the revolution.

Given a choice between pessimism and defeatism, or rhetoric as a means of mobilising the working class I'll take rhetoric every time.

Arthur Bough


Iraq labour movement and the demand for "troops out now"

I think what some people are leaving out of this discussion is the present. The reality for the working class in Iraq today, Tuesday November 22 2005, is that the political Islamists and Baathist remnants are their main enemy. We all know that at least 100,000 people have been killed in Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam. The overwhelming majority have been killed by political Islamists and Baathists. Not by US forces. Women seen outside their homes without a male escort are attacked and raped by political Islamists. Students at Basra university on a picnic playing western music on a CD player were bashed by political Islamists. Hairdressers who shave men's beards and give western style haircuts are murdered by political islamists.
A number of trade union officials have been kidnapped and murdered by political Islamists. Political Islamists and Baathists blow up markets. They blow up people queeing for jobs.

How can you possibly ask the workers' movement to go into coalition with people who are murdering members of your class by the hundred today and who will murder members of your class by the THOUSAND the moment they gain control of Iraqi society? This is no wild exaggeration.
It happened right next door... in Iran...in '79-'80-'81. It happened in Indonesia in '65 not long after after a coalition between the Indonesian Communist Party and bourgeois nationalists defeated Dutch colonialism. In Indonesia the clerical facists aided by the CIA whipped young fundamentalist Muslims and Christians into a frenzy that led to the slaughter of over 600,000 people in a few months. Members of the Indonesian Communist Party sat in their homes waiting for instructions which did not come from a leadership politically disarmed because only days before they were having drinks and dinner with people they thought were allies.

The other major point I would like to make is this.. those who are passionate defenders of the so-called "resistance" give only nominal support to the Iraqi workers' movement. Ask yourself this... have you raised a single dollar for an Iraqi union or left wing party? Have you tried to convince a single trade unionist you know to call for an Iraq tour by his/her union leaders? Or to get his/her union to help pay for an Iraqi leftist to tour your country? If your answer is no (in my case it is yes) you can't say you're in solidarity with Iraqi labour.

The unions and left wing parties in Iraq need money. And (unlike Al Queda and Al Sadr) they won't get it from governments. Without the material and political support of unionists and socialists in countries like ours, the only civilising force in Iraqi society... the workers' movement... cannot grow. And if the workers' movement does not grow it won't be able to take on and defeat both poles of terrorism: the occupiers and the clerical facists/Baathist remnants.

Lynn Smith
Sydney Australia


Who On this board has made that demand?

"How can you possibly ask the workers' movement to go into coalition with people who are murdering members of your class by the hundred today and who will murder members of your class by the THOUSAND the moment they gain control of Iraqi society? This is no wild exaggeration."

Who on this board has made such a call? All of the above discussion above is by people who are completely opposed to the so called resistance. Not one single comment above from anyone on either side of the debate about Troops Out Now even comes close to suggesting that workers should co-oerate with the Resistance. On the contrary, we have made precisely the opposite case.

If we are going to have a debate let's at least debate what people are saying rather than put up straw men.

Arthur Bough


Rhetoric revisited

Maybe rhetoric was the wrong word, given its numerous meaning. My use of it was as 'sounding good but essentially empty of meaning'. And I'm sure Lenin, Marx and Arthur would be against that.

'Workers of the World Unite', 'All Power to the Soviets' were never particularly 'Now' slogans and as Sean refers to in his article Lenin stopped the Bolsheviks encouraging the Soviets to take power and bring down the provisional governmentin July 1917 (i.e. implementing 'All power to the Soviets NOW' because St. Petersburg would have been isolated from the rest of Russia). That didn't make Lenin a supporter of Kerensky, it did make him a serious revolutionary who didn't issue slogans light-mindedly.

As we wrote in the Solidarity editorial of Sept 25th 'The problem in general with precise advice or demands to established governments by people who do not possess state power or influence - of the 'out now' sort - is that in every situation it inescapably implies a view about the alternative. It implies either pointed, precise, positive support for the given alternative - and of course sometimes we do support that alternative, for example when it means an occupying army ceding to a genuine national liberation movement - or indifference to it.'

No-one has successfully put the case here that Iraqi workers or even a democratic anti-imperialist movement could take power immediately. We should organise to give support to people who aim to do that as soon as they can.

The July days in Russia led to Trotsky being put in prison and Lenin in hiding, and they had done everything they could to make sure that the Bolsheviks had not been seen as premature insurrectionists.

Attempting to couple the new workers movement in Iraq to slogans that would imply support to either one or another Islamist militia, would lead to their isolation within one sectarian identity or another and quite possibly their total and complete eventual physical elimination.