Why supporters of "two states" should not join the "smash Israel" boycotters— Solidarity, yes! Boycott, no!
An open letter to Hilary and Steven Rose from John O’Mahony
Comrades: As well-known supporters of the proposal to boycott Israel, you will have been pleased by the boycott resolutions carried recently by the lecturers’ union UCU and the journalists’ union NUJ, and by the move to “boycott Israeli institutions” contained in Resolution 54 to the conference (starting 19 June) of the public services union Unison.
You, I believe, support a boycott as something to help bring about “two states” in Israel/ Palestine — Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories, and the creation of a sovereign, independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. On the goal of “two states”, I agree with you. But I believe the boycott will harm rather than help that cause, and in this Open Letter I want to explain why.
The mood for boycott is backed by strong feelings of indignation and outrage against Israel, and by a powerful and unanswerable sentiment that something must be done by the British labour movement to help the Palestinians.
The following, the main, features of the relationship of Israel and the Palestinian people cry out for action against Israel and on behalf of the Palestinians.
- Israel has ruled over the Palestinian majority territories as an occupying colonial power for exactly forty years — since the June war of 1967.
- The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is one of overwhelming Israeli superiority in the technology of modern war. Israel’s bad showing in the July 2006 war in Lebanon has not altered that. The Israeli right concludes from that experience that there should be another such war, so that Israel can reassert its military superiority.
- Israel uses the disparity in power and armaments with sickening ruthlessness and evident disregard for Palestinian civilian casualties.
- The Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are harassed in their livelihoods and studies by the Israeli army, pauperising them.
- Israel, in fact if not in plain words, is opposed to allowing the Palestinians to set up their own state. When Israeli leaders speak of a Palestinian state, they do not mean what the Palestine Liberation Organisation means — a sovereign, independent, Palestinian state, in contiguous territory, alongside Israel. The Israeli leaders, or most of them, mean Palestinian autonomy in chopped-up territories under the military control of Israel.
- The “roadmap” for peace in the Middle East, set out four years ago and backed by the United Nations, the European Union, Russia, and the USA, has so far come to nothing. Whatever chance it had of being forced on Israel has been a casualty of the chaos which has mired the USA and its allies in Iraq.
- Israel has the power to change things, and to undercut the Hamas type of reaction. It has done the opposite.
- In order for Israel to accept, and collaborate in setting up, a genuine independent Palestinian state, it will have to come under very strong and determined international pressure, in the first place from the USA. No such pressure is being put on Israel. Israel is a valued ally of the USA in Bush’s “war on terror”.
And meanwhile the carnage goes on.
Those are the main elements in the case for boycotting Israel — or, rather, for taking some action against Israel and for the Palestinians. “Boycott” is the easy and obvious action.
It can be argued against the above list that it is one-sided and unfair to Israel — that it leaves out of the picture the long history of the Israel-Arab conflict, in which the Israeli Jews are a small nation surrounded by big enemies, and, for recent history, the terrible campaign of homicide bombings (mounted mainly but not only by Hamas and Islamic Jihad) which followed on (many Israelis would say grew out of) earlier peace agreements, which collapsed in 2000. The harassment of Palestinians which prevents them going about their business, oppressive though it is, and unnecessary and arbitrary as some, perhaps most, of it now is, cannot reasonably be separated from Israel’s effort to protect its citizens from homicide bombers.
But it is necessary at this point to declare my own point of view. I am a supporter of the PLO position of a two-states settlement — a sovereign, independent, Palestinian state in contiguous territory, side by side with Israel. And I think British trade unionists should help the Palestinians. We have a duty to help them.
I, like other other members of the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty, have been active in protest activities to try to do that — pickets, demonstrations, meetings (including speaking tours for Israeli refuseniks and Israeli peace activists — something which would seem to be ruled out by the comprehensive “boycott” motion).
I believe that a boycott, though at first blush it seems the obvious thing to do, is not in fact the way to help the Palestinians. On the contrary, it would be counterproductive. Its effect on Israel for the good would be marginal, and it carries enormous political overhead costs, costs that would be far greater than any help a boycott movement could conceivably give to the Palestinians. All in all, there are, I believe special considerations to be taken into account in this case.
Why not boycott?
Three things — and they overlap — seem to me to speak strongly against a boycott movement.
- A boycott movement against Israel would, once it took off, inevitably become a movement against “Zionists” in Britain. In practice, and according to all the relevant experience, that would mean: against Jews. The boycott movement would become, or, if you prefer, become indistinguishable from, an anti-Jewish movement.
- As I’ve noted above, you, if I understand it correctly, support a boycott as a measure to put pressure on Israel to concede “two states”. Those who have the organisation to bring boycott proposals to union conference agendas do not. The hard core who promote boycott are in the first place, the SWP/Respect and those around it in such movements as the “Stop The War Coalition”.
They do not support a two-states settlement. They oppose it.<./ul>
- They are committed not to a Palestinian sovereign state alongside Israel, but to the destruction of Israel and its replacement by an Arab state in which those Jews who will survive the military conflict and its immediate aftermath would have religious but not national rights.
For hard-core boycotters like the SWP, the purpose of the boycott is not to push Israel to particular concessions. The purpose is to brand all Israeli Jews and all “Zionists” as untreatable except by force. For such people, boycott is seen as part of the programme of destroying Israel.
They used to call their programme “secular democratic state”, but, supporting Hamas as they do, they now tend to fade out the qualification “secular”. Talk of campaigning for any sort of secular state in tandem with political Islamists is, it seems, too preposterously self-contradictory even for the SWP/Respect!
The ardent boycotters on the British kitsch-left support clerical-fascist organisations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood (in Britain, MAB). All such groups advocate and promote not the PLO programme of two states — the only basis on which any approximation to justice can be won for both the peoples in the Jewish-Arab conflict — but the destruction of Israel and its replacement by a theoretical Islamic clerical-fascist regime, as in Iran, for instance.
Their tactics are deliberate mass slaughter of civilians (including Muslims) by individuals who believe that their instant reward for mass murder will be ascension into a Hollywood Arabian Nights style paradise replete with harems of virgins. The reckless, criminal indifference of Israel to “ancillary” civilian casualties in their military action rightly outrages us. Even in its worst instances, however, this is something not to be equated with people who take the deliberate slaughter of people in the London Tube, in a Tel Aviv night club, or on a Baghdad street, as their deliberate purpose.
It is the Islamists’ slogans for Israel-Palestine that have dominated the “anti-war” movement and its demonstrations: “Palestine shall be free/ From the river to the sea”. On the London march in protest against the Israeli invasion of Lebanon last July, many (seeming) non-Muslims took up the cry: “We are all Hezbollah”.
That no doubt embodied an emotional identification with the victims of Israeli warfare, and an emotional hostility to Israel. But such sloganeering is possible only to people who do not know the nature of those with whom they identify, and what they mean for Arabs and for Muslims, especially the women, or who are too politically disoriented to care. Large numbers of young people are in the first category. The SWP/ Respect work to pull them into the second.
The kitsch left does everything it can to disorient young people who oppose war and obey the good and healthy impulse to side with the oppressed and with the weak (the Palestinians) against the strong (Israel).
It is not a question here only of the SWP adapting to its clerical fascist allies. Long before they discovered the progressive revolutionary potential of Islamism, even when they were passionately against those of us who championed the Muslims of Bosnia against the Serbian chauvinists who were slaughtering them, this organisation advocated not two states but the destruction of Israel.
Not to argue for two states is not to serve the interests of the Palestinians. The result is the same whether those embodying such politics are motivated by Islamist-fascist millenarianism, in which the fate of the Palestinians or any other people (Muslim peoples included) in “this world” counts for nothing, or by visions of a world “anti-imperialist” revolution and by ancient political animosities to the Jews of Palestine (which undoubtedly dominated the founder of the SWP, the late Tony Cliff, himself, as you know, in origin a Palestinian Jew).
This “background” cannot but affect what a boycotting campaign led by these people will mean in practice.
The forces who promote boycott have for many years actively opposed any effort to help the Palestinians secure their own state alongside Israel. When the activist left was united in the Socialist Alliance, in 2001, the SWP repeatedly voted down proposals that the Alliance should demand Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. They go on demonstrations with petitions and chants: “Two states solution/ No solution!”
Despite the “humanitarian” face they give their anti-Israel agitation, they are ultimately as little concerned with the well-being of the Palestinians as are the religious crazies of Islamist clerical fascism with whom they have twinned themselves.
Their goal implies, all things taken into account, no solution or relief for the Palestinians until Israel is destroyed; and not even those who most ardently wish the destruction of Israel believe that that will happen soon.
One of the issues in play now in the Middle East is whether or not the very historical possibility of a “two states” solution is being destroyed. The kitsch left no less that the Islamist right want it to cease to be a possibility.
The South Africa analogy
You, comrades Rose, argue from comparisons and analogies which on examination do not hold up. Apartheid South Africa, for example.
In the present boycott movement around the Jewish-Arab conflict, South Africa features on two levels. The precedent of the South African boycott is invoked to argue for a boycott of Israel. And Israel is said to be identical to, or travelling fast to being a society identical to, apartheid South Africa.
The comparison of Israel with apartheid South Africa is in my opinion very instructive. First, take the boycott tactic.
An international boycott lasted from the beginning of 1960 to the end of apartheid in 1994 — that is, dating apartheid from 1948 when the Nationalist Malan regime formalised and extended racial segregation, for 34 years of the 46 year life of full-blow apartheid. A campaign that lasted so long, without any change in what it was campaigning against until the very end, was self-evidently limited in its effect!
Limited and, in fact, contradictory. Contradictory, because it struck also at blacks and coloureds. The academic aspects of the boycott, for example, did that.
The boycott “principle” was used by the ANC to oppose direct links between British unions and the new black-majority unions which grew up in South Africa in the 1970s and 80s.
The attitude of the kitsch-left to the Israeli trade unions is, like its attitude to the Israeli Jewish working class, one of stark hostility, and, frequently, denial that they are unions at all. But the Israeli unions, though their policies on Palestinian rights are not what we would wish, are genuine workers’ unions, not comparable to the whites-only unions in South Africa. There are many peace movements in Israel with which we can and should work. Boycott cuts off the channels for working for “two states”.
But, you will say, those channels have produced little, and even a limited new form of pressure must be desirable. Other things being equal, yes! In fact, however, the main function of the boycott of South African goods was not its practical effect in forcing concessions, but as a vehicle, a “hook”, for a relentless drive to make South Africa stink the nostrils of people who believed in human equality.
That, of course, was appropriate. On a certain limited level, too, the boycott expressed the objective of smashing, beating down, and overthrowing the South African apartheid state — which (in contrast to what “smashing” Israel would mean) signified not foreign conquest, but replacing minority with majority rule. That too was good because it was necessary. The blacks and coloureds of South Africa were helots. Nothing except destruction of the apartheid regime could serve their interests.
Here we already tread on the ground of what is wrong with equating Israel with South Africa. It is grotesque in its misrepresentation. As soon as we come close to facts, they speak out against those who equate Israel and South Africa.
South African white society was built on black economic enslavement, on the exploitation of people defined as without rights because of their “race”. That was true as far back as the mid and late 19th century, before the British conquest of the Boers in the war of 1899-1902.
And Israel? The all-shaping characteristic of the Jewish colony in Palestine was the determination of its dominant and most dynamic elements not to be exploiters of Arab labour. They aimed to create a Jewish nation, with Jewish workers and Jewish farmers as its essential component. The Jewish colony, and Israel, never rested on the exploitation of Arab labour. They built a society in parallel to the Arab society (and most of it, anti-Israel myths notwithstanding, on reclaimed waste and swamp land).
The amount and importance of Arab labour in the Israeli economy grew after June 1967, but in its extent, centrality, and irreplaceability it never came to merit even bracketing in the same economic species as South Africa. Israel was and is a Jewish nation state (with a 20% Palestinian Arab minority) separate and distinct from the Palestinian Arabs.
It is possible to deplore the fact, and possible to refuse to come to terms with it. But the fact is that Israel confronts the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world as a national state. In contrast to South Africa, it is not necessary for the liberation of the Palestinian Arabs that the Israeli national state be destroyed.
You, comrades Rose — if I’ve got it right — accept that. You believe that a Palestinian state alongside Israel, “two states”, is the solution — not the destruction of Israel.
Yet you go along with, ally with, and in practice serve politically, those who favour a radically different outcome, the destruction of Israel. By invoking the nonsensical equation of Israel with South Africa, you feed the demonisation of Israel which is the root of so much that is poisonous on the left — and which in practice serves to push back, or aside, concentration on helping the Palestinians secure the settlement which you, like us, think makes most sense, an independent Palestinian state.
Demonising “Zionists”
If the movement to boycott South Africa served as an agency for spreading international understanding of the foul racist nature of apartheid South Africa, in the case of Israel the boycott movement comes after, not before, widespread demonisation of Israel. Again, the contrast with South Africa is telling, and not on your side of the argument.
In the fight against apartheid, not too many socialists, I guess, wasted time reflecting on the sad fate of the Boer nation, which had been championed during the Boer war of 1899-1902 against Britain by socialists all over the world (though some of us paused to link that fate with Karl Marx’s famous dictum, “The nation that enslaves another can never itself be free”). There was never any real injustice in the way the Boers of South Africa were perceived by the international anti-apartheid movement.
There is great injustice, and injustice based on grossly misleading, one-sided, and falsified “history”, in the way Israel is perceived by most of the left. The “Stalin school of falsification” initially did that work, which the kitsch-left has now taken up.
Of course it is just and proper that Israel be faced with hostility for what it does to the Palestinians over whom it has such great, and greatly abused, power. It can be argued, and up to a point justly, that Israel here gets what it deserves, reaps what it sows.
Yet Israel is indeed — as uncritical apologists for Israel so often assert, without thereby invalidating the point — singled out, measured by standards applied to no other nation, its citizens now held responsible to the third and fourth generations for what their ancestors did or are alleged to have done.
Politically, on this question, you are products of the Cliff school of Jewish-Arab politics and history. You have, in advocating two states, broken from the key conclusion of that school, that Israel must be destroyed — somehow, and by someone, even a Saddam Hussein or an Assad or an Ahmedinejad.
I can’t know how much of what you learned in that school you still hold to. But the role you have played in the boycott-Israel movement indicates that you still hold to a great deal of it.
You know how the history goes.
Jews were persecuted in Russia and Eastern Europe.
Then came Zionism, a Jewish-nationalist and even Jewish “racist” mirror image of the nationalism and racism in the society around them.
The Zionists urged Jewish workers to abandon the class struggle in their own countries and to go to Palestine, to create utopian socialist colonies there, the kibbutzim.
True to their reactionary petty bourgeois nature, the Zionists allied with imperialist powers and worked to win their favour.
Eventually, in 1917, Britain, which would assume control of what had been Turkish Palestine a year later, declared itself in favour of a “Jewish national home” in Palestine.
In Palestine, the Zionist colonists built their own economy, excluding Arab workers from their enterprises. That was not Jewish nationalism: this was “racism". What in other peoples was nationalism, in the Jews was racism, and racism most foul! It was racism identical to that of the Nazis.
It was the harvest from the seeds planted when the Zionists “capitulated to” the racist pressure of the anti-semites in Europe.
Then, worse by far! The Zionists allied with the Nazis.
What comes next varies, depending on how deep-dyed in the kitsch-left culture on Zionism one is.
“The Zionists” collaborated with the Nazis, their mirror self in occupied Europe even as they were attempting to extirpate the Jews of Europe;some of them helped the Nazis to organise the deportation of a million Jews from Hungary to the death camps!
At the end of the 20th century, Jim Allen, arguably the most talented left-wing dramatist in Britain, wrote a play, Perdition, in which he descended to branding “Zionists” (and Jews — his target-finder wobbled a lot) as co-responsible for the Holocaust, or parts of it. Ken Loach, far and away the most important left-wing film-maker in Britain, produced the play — or tried to — at the Royal Court Theatre.
To pick up the main thread again.
In Palestine the Jews collaborated with the British imperial power.
As one British colonial official put it, the Jews would create a “little loyal Ulster” in the Middle East to serve Britain.
(Everyone in or near the kitsch-left hears about that dictum, early in their association with it: few hear that the official, Ronald Storrs, became one of the leading anti-Zionists of the 1940s). The Jews robbed the Palestinians of their land.
“The Zionists” (the Jews) used their great power in the councils of the world to ensure that, as the 1930s moved towards the outbreak of World War Two in 1939, no country would accept more than a trickle of Jewish refugees from Germany. Jews who wanted to escape the threat of Hitler would not — so “the Zionists” decreed, and statesmen like Roosevelt meekly followed their decrees — be allowed to go anywhere else but Palestine.
In this way, as in many other ways, “the Zionists” bore some responsibility for the Nazi massacre of Europe’s Jews (including the Zionists!)
At the end of World War Two, after a little bit of a misunderstanding between the Zionists and the British, the Zionists changed imperial masters, and put themselves at the service of US imperialism. The United Nations, serving the USA, decided to partition Palestine and create a Jewish state, Israel (and a Palestinian one, too, but that is something that tends to get lost in the telling, as is the fact that the territory allotted by the UN to the Palestinian state was taken by Jordan — the West Bank, until 1967 — and Egypt).
Israel then drove out millions of Palestinians. Ever since, Israel has served imperialist interests in the Middle East.
I’ve telescoped the story, but I haven't crudified it: see, for example, Jim Higgins, a once-central representative of the old pre-SWP IS culture, and one who was far from ignorant, in a debate in Workers’ Liberty in 1996-7 (www.workersliberty.org/node/8210).
Writhing tissue of poisonous "history"
Where to begin unravelling this writhing tissue of poisonous “historical” worms?
The first thing that strikes you in this kitsch-Left tale of irrepressible human evil, oppression, and mischief-making, is who the villains are. They are the people, and most of the leaders of the people, who were the victims of oppression and industrialised mass murder. The people who, after they and their forebears had, over decades and centuries, been maligned as human demons, the source of most of the evils in the world, had two in every three of their number in Europe — Europe all the way from the Caucasus to the Breton coast — murdered.
The second thing that strikes you is how relentlessly and stupidly malignant some of the constructions on the facts, quasi-facts, and alleged facts are.
“The Zionists” could tell the US President his policy on immigration, and they would tell him to keep Jews out? Of course they could!Of course they would!(See Jim higgins, above). “The Zionists” were and are inhuman demons.
The third thing that strikes you is the stratospherical lunacy of much of what is attributed to “the Zionists”, if you tie it together into something like coherence. For example, in Allen’s play and Lenni Brenner’s books (on which Allen seems to have based himself), “the Zionists” wanted a million Hungarian Jews dead because that would help them “get” Israel after the war. (The four or so million already dead in 1944 were not a strong enough moral case, it seems — but I can’t explain what I can’t understand....)
“The Zionists” not only collaborated with the Nazis, but manipulated and used them for their purposes. Even during the Holocaust, the Jews (as “the Zionists”) were pulling strings and determining what happened! Even Hitler and the Nazi movement — ultimately, if you know how to interpret things, and what "really" happened — served the interests of Zionism.Of "the Jews.
The fourth thing that strikes you is the stony-hearted lack of sympathy and empathy, or even sympathetic understanding, with which the absolute anti-Zionists, some of whom are, to their credit, moved by the suffering of the Palestinians, approach the history of their subject. Everything is grist to their mill. Conflicting or contradictory elements in the real history are ruthlessly cut away.The"absolute anti-Zionists operate with a serene self-righteousness, an absolute set of double standards.
Did Jewish or “Zionist” leaders “negotiate” at gunpoint with the murderous power which had them in its grip? Of course some of them did. Aha, that tells you the “real” nature of Zionism, its true inner affinity with Nazism!
It is the testimony of history that anti-semitic persecution in Poland, Germany, and other countries drove those Jews who could get there to go to Palestine, and that anti-semitism after the defeat of the Nazis (there were pogroms against returning Jews in Poland, and riots in Paris) convinced the surviving Jews that nothing would serve them but their own state. Those events turned Zionism from a minority movement into the viewpoint of a majority of Jews, and transformed the situation in Palestine by ensuring that hundreds of thousands of Jews moved there in the 20s, 30s, and 40s.
Is that how it was? No, in the conventionalkitsch-Left account, it wasn’t like that at all! It was the inner nature of racist, malignant “Zionism”, its devilish plotting and string-pulling, that shaped events.
It is the testimony of history that little more than a decade after the British took over Palestine, and after the Balfour Declaration, Britain tried to renege on its promise that Palestine could be a Jewish national home. It began to impose restrictions on Palestinian Jews (acquiring land, for instance) and on Jewish immigration that culminated on the eve of World War Two (that is, on the eve of the Holocaust) in largely stopping Jewish entry to Palestine.
Throughout the World War and the Holocaust, and up until Britain quit Palestine in 1948, it systematically and rigorously excluded all but a meagre quota of Jews from Palestine. It interned illegal refugees, and effectively condemned many would-be refugees to death at sea as they, Jewish "boat people", sought to evade the controls in miserably unseaworthy craft.
True? Nonsense!Britain served "the Zionists"!“The Zionists” and Britain worked hand in glove.
It is the testimony of history that when the state of Israel was declared in May 1948, all the imperialist powers with one exception imposed a rigorous arms embargo (the same sort of thing as was done against the Muslims of Bosnia in the 1990s) against Israel, whose ill-equipped citizen army faced the professional (and some of them, British-officered) armies of Egypt, Syrian, Jordan and Iraq.
The exception was Stalin’s Russia, which, eager to create difficulties for its British rival, sent guns via its puppet state of Czechoslovakia.
— Nonsense! Israel was a capitalist-imperialist stooge, always.
It is the fact of history that three quarters of a million Arabs were driven out or fled in 1948, in a war in which Arab armies attacked the territory allocated to Israel by the United Nations in 1947. The Egyptians came with the slogan, “Drive the Jews into the sea!”; and, naturally enough, they had or could hope for the support of the Arabs in the areas they invaded.
— Nonsense! Here too “the Zionists” were in absolute control — and millions, not three quarters of a million, were driven out or fled.
It is the testimony of history that nearly as many Jews — about 600,000 — were driven out of the Arab countries to Israel in 1948 and after.
— What’s wrong with that? Why wouldn’t they be? They were probably “Zionists”.
And so on, and so on, and so on...
The fifth thing that strikes you is the one-sidedness, the grotesque all-pervading one-sidedness, of the “history” that underpins the kitsch-left’s picture of the Arab-Jewish conflict. What in one side is damnable, down to the 4th and 5th generation is in the other commendable.
Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, the leader of the Palestinian Arabs, went to Europe and tried to raise a Bosnian Muslim legion to fight for Hitler. He shared Hitler’s objective of annihilating Jews. He wanted the Nazis armies to drive the British out of Palestine. If the Nazis had gained control of Palestine — even temporarily — they and he would have massacred every Jewish child, woman, and man.
In the conventional kitsch-left account? — It is perfectly understandable! Husseini was an anti-imperialist, looking for what allies he could get. Of course he had a right to do that, and should not be judged adversely for it.
The wartime antics of the Mufti are no secret, but quite widely known. The most stern judges of the Zionist or Jewish “collaborators”, at gunpoint, are entirely indulgent of the Mufti. The Arabs had rights in Palestine, you see. The Jews didn’t.
That is the point of much of the poisonous pseudo-history.
The Arabs are and always were the legitimate people, with the normal rights of self-defence, including the right to manoeuvre for advantage between their enemies and their enemies’ enemies. The Jews had no rights — no right to what? To be in Palestine? To live? If the choice were Palestine or death, it was better for them to die? They should be blamed for not doing that — and for defeating in 1948 those who wanted to kill them or, in the words of the proclaimation of the Egyptian army invading Israel, "drive them into the sea"?
Comrades Rose: how much of this stuff do you go along with? How much of what you learned in the IS/SWP have you jettisoned? How much of it have you simply not thought about for a long time?
The dynamics of boycott
You can justly reply that this history, has no bearing on the question at issue: for or against a boycott of Israel now. It has, however, a very great deal of relevance to the political-cultural framework in which this discussion takes place. And to what the kitsch-left and their Islamist allies will make of a boycott movement.
The grotesque “history” — not history, but the demonisation outside of history of an entire people — which I have touched on (there is a very great deal more of it) is dominant on the kitsch left, and underpins the “solution” to the Israel/ Palestine conflict most widely accepted on the “left” — destroy Israel. Destroy the demon spawn of Zionism (and the twin of Nazism: that is what is said, and when not said, widely implied, mad though it is).
It is the proponents of such views — themselves the allies of clerical-fascist Islamists who have their own mystic-religious “dialect” of this “devils and angels” story — that you ally with and serve in the “boycott Israel” campaign.
I want to keep the lines clear. Yes, boycott is logically separable from the historical demonisation. No dispute there. The policy of boycott is not necessarily tied into the demonisation. Logically.
But in reality? In reality, this boycott movement gains its active force from people who hold to and propagate the “absolute anti-Zionist” demonisation which I have touched on above.
Now, in Britain, the boycott is a weapon against Israel in the hands of people, secular kitsch-leftists and Islamist clerical-fascists alike, whose goal is to destroy Israel and — as a corollary — to pay no heed to the needs of the Palestinian people, except as a source of pseudo-humanitarian agitation against Israel.
Rejecting a Palestinian state alongside Israel, they have no rational goal, no goal realisable in the calculable future, no democratically acceptable goal, in their agitation against Israel.
They and no-one else — certainly not anomaly-ridden two-states supporters like yourselves — will dominate and shape the boycott campaign.
Comrades, you cannot but remember the numerous episodes in the colleges in the 1970s and 80s in which kitsch-left “anti-imperialists” and “anti-racists” banned college Jewish societies, or tried to ban them, and harassed their members. What else do you do with “racists”? And, unlike the nationalists of other peoples, Jewish nationalists (as we’ve seen) are ipso facto racists, the historical legatees of the Nazis and in some respects their living embodiment in the Middle East now.
The lunacy and hysteria are not mine, are not in the last sentence, but in the events I allude to, the bans on student Jewish societies, the branding and harassing of all “Zionists” as “racists”.
You cannot but know that. You cannot but remember it.
You know about cases like that of Miriam Shlesinger, a former chair of the Israeli section of Amnesty International and a strong critic of the Israeli government’s mistreatment of Palestinians, who in 2002 was thrown off the editorial board of an international journal of translation studies by the editor, a British academic, who wanted to boycott Israel.
You think such things can help the Palestinians? You think it would be progress to involve Stop The War, MAB, and the supporters of Muslim jihadists, in seeking out and hounding local “supporters of the racist state of Israel”, “Zionist-racists”, and “Zionist agents of imperialism”?
Or do you think it won’t happen, or, to put it at its weakest, is not likely to happen, as a result of the boycott campaign? Why not? Such things can be kept under control? Who will control them?
Nobody will control them, once a freewheeling campaign gets going. Attacks by Muslims on Jews have increased greatly throughout Europe in the last years. The chance that a boycott of Israel now, in this situation, mounted by these people (SWP/Respect and their clerical-fascist allies), whose goal is to see Israel destroyed, will lead to a targeting of Jewish Zionists, is, I suggest, large enough to deter friends of the Palestinians and advocates of a two-states settlement from adding their weight to the campaign.
And let me remind you of something that is likely to be forgotten. In the old campus wars against “Zionism”, it was Jews who were targeted as “Zionists”. Non-Jewish Zionists — people like Tony Benn, then a prominent member of the Labour Friends of Israel group — were left alone. That won’t happen now? Why will it not?
Anti-semitism
At the conference of the university lecturers’ union AUT in 2005, you, Steven Rose, said: “How dare they call me an anti-semite when many of my family died in the Holocaust and I have fought anti-semitism all my life?”
Anti-semitism, of course, is the vexed question. And it begs the question, what is anti-semitism?
In terms of your feelings — how could anyone other than a moron entertain a general hostility to a whole category of disparate human beings, however defined? As a species, socialists tend to like people, to wish them well.
How could people of Jewish background subscribe to the idiocies of anti-semitism? Or, as Tony Cliff once said in response to the idea that he was an anti-semite: “I’ve got a Jewish wife and Jewish children. Of course I’m an anti-semite!”
Yet that doesn’t quite cover it — for Cliff, for Cliff’s political orphans, or even for you.
Here it is surely not a matter of racism, or of comprehensive subjective dislike of all the vastly varied people who are, in one way or another, Jews. Leave aside the term “anti-semitism” for the moment, and examine the substance of what it means to hold to the position that the SWP/ Respect and its political satellites have and propagate on the Jewish-Arab conflict.
They — unlike you — believe that the Israeli Jewish nation should be abolished. Since there is no way that it can be persuaded to abolish itself peacefully, that means in practice that it should be conquered and its state destroyed; and those who want it destroyed must support those “anti-imperialist” Arab or Muslim states that alone can, they hope, do it.
This proposal to destroy a nation state is unique on the left. There is no equivalent attitude to any other nation. The South African analogy is utterly false here: the objective of the serious left there was that minority rule be destroyed, and replaced by majority rule, not that a whole nation be conquered.
Whether you call that unique attitude anti-semitism or not, the position that the Jewish state should be destroyed is hardly “pro-semitic”. And there is more, of course.
Most Jews alive today identify to one degree of another with Israel — critically and reluctantly, or uncritically and with gut chauvinism. Given the history we have briefly covered, how could it be otherwise?
The main exceptions I know of are some varieties of revolutionary socialist, and a small layer of religious Jews. Jews naturally identify with Israel, critically or uncritically. The drive against Zionism as the acme of “imperialism”, as “racism”, and all the rest — how can that not, to one degree or another, be, or become, a drive against non-Israeli Jewish Zionists? Especially those who can be identified because they stand up against the “anti-Zionists”, belong to a Jewish or Israeli society at a college, or run a shop which refuses to join a boycott? How, therefore, can the political programme of the “destroy Israel” merchants not be anti-semitic? Anti-semitic both in its core — destroy Israel; Israel is an illegitimate historical formation; the Jewish state must be abolished and swallowed up into a non-Jewish state — and in all that is spun from it?
The position that Israel is illegitimate contains in embryo (even if its proponents do not understand it or wish it) a full-scale anti-semitism. You don’t share that position — but you ally with and help those who will use a boycott campaign precisely to popularise and reiterate the idea that Israel is illegitimate, etc.
This is not, self-evidently, racist anti-semitism. Nor old-style Christian or Islamic anti-semitism. Yet it does involve a pretty comprehensive hostility not just to Israel but to most Jews alive, those who will not see “anti-imperialist” and “anti-racist” and anti-Zionist" “reason”.
Persecution of Jews, albeit on a mild level as these things go in history, was a feature of some campuses in the 1980s, organised and prosecuted by the SWP and their co-thinkers on this question. You can not but be aware of that, comrades Rose.
There have been quite a number of anti-semitisms in history, feeding into and off each other, but distinguishable one from another. The nearest (partial) equivalent I can think of to today’s “left” anti-semitism is the proselytising Christian anti-semites. They were not necessarily hostile to Jews as people — they wanted to save their souls. And only incidentally, in pursuit of that benign goal, did they break Jewish bones and burn Jewish bodies — or cast a tolerant eye on those who did that on behalf of the cause they themselves wanted to serve.
Everyone knows August Bebel’s statement that the “anti-Rothschild” type of old anti-semitism partook of “the socialism of the fools”. You could call the present “left” anti-Zionism, the “anti-imperialism”, or the “anti-racism”, of the idiots.
I conclude: there is no way in the circumstances I have outlined that a boycott movement will not, to put it at its mildest, run the risk of being an anti-Jewish movement. There is no way that participation in a movement for boycott, led and shaped by people mortally hostile to the continuation of Israel, does not conflict with your commitment to the only rational settlement — two states.
[This is a slightly shortened version of the text in Workers' Liberty.]
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labeling me an Israeli and a chauvinist does say more about you
Neve, where did I say that Israel is pure as snow? But it should also not be demonised, as you do.
Neve you see things black and white. Those who do not agree with you are all chauvinist Israelis, Zionists or at least not so smart people, who have not seen yet the light of anti-Zionism.
Read Benny Morris' book about the Palestinian refugees and you will find that most Palestinians were not expelled. And he has until now written the best book about subject matter.
Red Flag: I never said, that Israel did try everything to reach peace. However what we see now in the Gaza Strip is probably the proof, that most Palestinian do not want a state besides Israel but instead of Israel. In the meantime we see domestic infighting among Palestinians.
How did Palestinians react to the Israel withdrawal from the Gaza Strip? They saw it as a sign of weakness and started to fire rockets on an Israeli town.
So lets see realities.
Reply
The goal of Gaza withdrawal was the strenghtening of settlements in West Bank. Do you remember the statement of Dov Weisglass about this in October 2004?
You complain about demonization of Israel and you demonize Palestinian people. In 1948, the Palestinians was expelled by Zionist militias and others fleed to avoid massacres by those militias.
In his memories, Menahem Begin was proud that Deir Yassin force many Palestinians to fleed.
So lets see realities.
Yes A Reality
The point is that what you describe is THE REALITY i.e. the existence of a state for 60 years. How that state came into being is now irrelevant, it is a fact. Simply calling for its destruction because of the way it was formed - actually not much different than most states were formed - is pointless and reactionary. Socialists have to deal with what exists now, not be moralists complaining about what happened 60 years ago, and thereby dividing the working class.
Arthur Bough
Does the violent Israelbashing help Palestinians?
I agree with Arthur Bough. There is a state of Israel and the dreams of revenge of many Palestinians will not help them a bit.
So we can discuss the past, but as socialists we should offer people a way out of misery.
The spirit of vengeance - now so acute in Palestinian society – does not contribute to a solution it uproots any possiblility of or tendency towards rational mutual comprehension or of recourse to discussion, dialogue, and negotiation – what is known as peaceful resolution. Armed resistance cannot, psychologically and culturally, be the only choice for peoples to achieve their goals. The discourse of violence, incitement and hatred must be stopped, if peace is to be achieved.
And for Israel?
And Israeli violence? Is it justified for you? The destruction of Palestinian economic life by Israel is not a way for reach peace and justice. If you denounce only Palestinian extremists, as Omar do, you are one-sided. Why you refuse to denounce Israeli extremists and fascistics like Netanyahu, Lieberman, Eitam and others?
Reply
Hi Artur. I don't equate the Israeli working-class with its ruling class. I'm not in favour to destruction of Israel. I just want to say that Israel has a large share of responsability for current situation. The maintain of occupation and colonization of Palestinian territories and the destruction of Palestinian economic life by Zionist state is not a way to get peace and justice.
By the way sorry for my poor English, because I'm a French Canadian from Montreal and English is my second language.
Reality contradicts too often marxist prejudices
Arthur Bough
I must say I prefer your ideological prejudices to the enthusiastic laudations of fundamentalist Islamists. Of course there will be no perpetual civil war in Gaza-Strip. We could watch on our TV how the culture of vengeance and violence rampant in Palestinian society results in the mutual throwing of men from houses, how Hamas fighters went into a hospital and killed wounded men.
Could you kindly explain what influence has the working class in Israel and the Arab countries and what concretely can they do?
I am always amused to hear and read here declarations of the real Trotskyites who blame all the other groups of t being fake followers of Trotsky and who promise since 1945 to build a real workers party. In the meantime the social structure has completely changed, only the slogans from the old brochures remain the same.
When you say “our own imperialist bourgeoisie” should “keep their noses out”, do you mean nobody should intervene in what is happening in Palestinian society, let them have their fight?
Yes
Omar,
As I said I think, unfortunately, that the extent to which the organised working class, let alone socialists can materially determine the course of events immediately is limited. Partly, that is conjunctural - there are simply periods in history where the working-class is on the defensive (I believe closely related to the Kondratiev Long Wave Economic Cycle) and we have only just begun to emerge from such a period - partly because the Labour Movement is suffering from 80 years of Leninist sectarianism which has divided the Labour Movement, and from the effects of Stalinism which has badly miseductaed it.
But the working-class is extremely resourceful, and working class struggle can often arise spontaneously once the deep stirrings within the class begin to move. For now all that socialists can do is to put forward the arguments that provide the basis for hat working-class taking control of the situation, that provide the way forward if and when the working class begin to stir.
That is why yes, when I say that for socialists in the West our first priority is to argue for our own imperilaist bourgeoisie to keep its nose out means precisely that we should oppose them becoming embroiled under the pretext of providing a solution, or some form of humanitarian mission. All experience, including that of Iraq now demonstrtaes the consequence is always the opposite. That is not to be confused with the kind of - let them fight it out - kind of attitude. Not at all. As socialists we should be appalled at the humanitairian crisis that is likely to develop in Gaza over coming months. But our position has to be that imperialism is not the vehicle for providing a solution to that crisis, international working-class solidairity, and humanitarianism is. The Labour Movement internationally has considerable mechanisms, socialists should demand they be used.
Arthur Bough
I Don't
I don't refuse to criticise violence by the Israeli state or the racist politics of people like Netanyahu, nor does the AWL. There are lots of articles here doing precisely that. BUt the Israeli state and people like Netanyahu is not the same as the Israeli working class.
I have no desire to support the Israeli state or its clerical-fascist opponents. I have no dog in that fight. I am a socialist I support the democratic rights of both peoples, I seek to create the condiitons in which the working class and labour Movement of both peoples can flourish, and if possible unite against their oppressors for a struggle for socialism.
Arthur Bough
Better Than My French
Red Flag,
Your English is better than my French. I agree that the Israeli state has to take its large share of blame for the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. I'm glad you are not in favour of the destruction of the Israeli state. The solution, and it will not be easy as the condiitons detriorate, and it now looks likely that we are headed for some perpetual state of Civil War in Gaza with Hamas largely in control, but repeated acts of vengeance by families for the deaths of their members, and a Fatah controlled West Bank, can only be found through the working class of Israel and surrounding Arab countries. But as Lebanon now also seems headed for Civil War, and Egypt looking likely to be headed for destablisation, with Iraq headed for either separation or Civil War, and an invasion of Iran by the US likely in the next year or so, not to mention continued destablisation not just in Afghanistan, but in the surrounding Central Asian Republics, the conflict with Armenia, the situation in Chechnya etc. the prospects are not good.
The main focus for socialists in the West under these conditions I think has to be on insisting that our own imperialist bourgeoisie keep their noses out.
Arthur Bough
benny moris....
yes, benny moris also said that palestinians are animals and should be kept in a cage and that the only thing that ben gurion did wrong was not having 'finished the job' in 1948 by expelling all palestinians...
again - you're proving my point... you're a racist...
it must be a very dark place where you are with your hatred of palestinians and very unfortunate...
you're wrong arthur
arthur, it does matter how settler-colonial states were formed of the likes of israel, usa, canada, australia, new zealand and south africa. south africa was the first domino to fall in the restoration of indigenous rights and sovereignty throughout the anglo-saxon settler colonies. the fights of progressive people need to stand in solidarity with the indigenous peoples of these british settler colonies and their struggles for self-determination...
unless your like arthur and think the genocide of at least 20-million indigenous people in north america is no longer relevant.. or that the fact that until 30 years ago aborigines in australia were considered 'flaura and fauna'...
arthur, i'm sorry to tell you, its not the 19th century anymore...
the spirit of revenge?
hmmm... palestinians hold an election and exercise their rights.
all aid is cut off and now fuel to gaza! gaza is pounded with over 10,000 israeli shells and over 700 are killed (in addition to 1500) in lebanon by the israel's racist military machine... in this whole time a dozen israelis die...
and you're calling palestinians vengeful...
you're really not in touch with reality... but then again racism requires one to close your ideas to incredible suffering ....
when arthur bough met jim crow
yes... 'seperate and equal' we've heard that before....
except as you make clear in other posts, some nations are lesser than other nations
in this case, the palestinians are lesser than the non-existent 'israeli socialist' you support... why keep changing the subject of the 171 palestinians organizations (mainly left, progressive and secular organizations) that called for the boycott?
is it maybe because the voices of palestinians don't matter?
What the Fuck Does This Mean?
Neve,
Sorry, but your now sounding off your trolley. Are you seriously proposing that the history of the USA and Canada be unwound??? This is not just totally loopy, but it is thoroughly reactionary in the fullest sense of the word. Socialists are not interested in looking back, but in looking forwards. We start from where we are, to work towards where we want to go. Where we want to go is not to some unreconstructable past, a past which in most cases was thoroughly reactionary itself.
Arthur Bough
Conflation
Neve, once again you are slippery in your argument. You conflate different things as though they automatically go together.
No one denies the oppression of Palestinians. I think in fact everyone here is opposed to it. But that fact is entirely separate from the other issues you raise. Is it possible that alongside the oppression of the Palestinians there could be a certain vengefulness that creeps into Palestinian culture? I would have thought it unreasonable for there not to be. But more importantly, could such a feeling be central to the politics of certain groups such as HAMAS? Quite clearly it can.
Does the oppression of Palestinians mean that Western Governments have to continue providing aid to HAMAS? Clearly there is no logical reason why they should. In fact it seems to me rather absurd to criticise the US for not doing something which is clearly not in its interest i.e. financing HAMAS. We should be concerned for the humanitarian plight of the Palestinians, and seek to deal with that. We should oppose power being cut off to Gaza, and so on.
No decent socialist closes their eyes to the suffering of the Palestinians, but it is for that reason that we have a duty to put forward demands that deal with that suffering here and now rather than advocate pie in the sky solutions that are unachievable in the immediate future if at all, or which are in reality merely a cover for putting forward the reactionary politics of various clerical-fascist organisations. The boycott can have no postive benefits for dealing with the plight of Palestinians here and now following the coup in Gaza, if anything it will only make that plight worse by punishing those Palestinian workers that rely on work in Israel for their livelihood.
Arthur Bough
Really Annoying
Neve,
I am beginning to find your continual refusal to engage in logical debate, and continual misrepresentation of whatever I say, let alone your absurd slurs very annoying.
Where did I say anything about "separate and equal". You then make an obscure comment about "lesser nations" but rather than actually deal with the argument made not just by me, but by Marx, Engels and Lenin you make some further obscure comment that does not even follow comparing the Palestinian nation with non-existent Israeli socialists!!!!! I think your denial that there are any Israeli socialists says all we need to know about your politics.
I will deal for the umpteenth time with your silly accusation that I have not taken into consideration the views of Palestinian workers by again repeating that taking that into consideration does not mean having to agree with it, any more than it is clear that socialists should have taken account of the views of ZANU-PF and taken them as good coin merely because they were leading a "liberation" struggle.
I think your position is thoroughly patronising to Palestinians in suggesting that socialists should not be able to hold a dialogue with Palestinains involved in struggle, and disagree where they beleive that struggle is being misled.
Arthur Bough
the possible police
You ask if it could be possible that a certain vengefulness creeps into Palestinian culture??
You sound like a 19th century western anthropologist presenting the conclusions of his work to the British people, summing up a 'culture' in a few words.
- I tell you my fellow citizens, Palestinian culture is about revenge.
- Thank you Professor for this brilliant insight on Palestinian culture.
Is it possible that the Palestinian there are subjected to appalling treatment, humiliation, discrimination, torture and killing?
Is it possible that about 95% of Palestinian children suffer from trauma because of what they are exposed to?
Is it possible that these people are actually fighting for their rights? That they are fighting a racist, violent, aggressive, colonialist policy and ideology?
Is it possible that they use their right of resistance to live in better conditions and to achieve self-determination?
Is it possible that their fight is about here and now and not about some abstract idea you put in their minds??
Do you even deny these people the right to resist to what is actually happening??
Impressive...
So you dont necessarily oppose the cut of all aid and economic relationships with Hamas by the western countries. That says a lot about what you think of democracy. I suppose you should know better what democracy is about. You live in the West after all. We still need to teach small nations what its all about.
So anyway, im glad to see that you dont make opposing boycott a principle. It does not seem to bother you so much when it comes to boycotting Palestinians.
Now again im sure all your bright ideas have been misrepresented in this reply to your post.
I personally think that when it comes to misrepresentation, your idea of Palestinian resistance and of the situation there is quite something.
'We should be concerned for the humanitarian plight of the Palestinians'
Is that your idea of what socialists should do then? Deal with the humanitarian crisis? Watch Israel ruining Palestinian economy, creating political instability, occupying the country, etc...?
Then denounce the resistance as being vengeful clerical-fascism, condemn it, but deal with the humanitarian crisis??
I really do hope im mistaken about that cos it sounds to me like it is mostly about denying a people the right of resistance and of political self-determination, as well as paternalistic humanitarian imperialism.
Quite the opposite to me of what socialism should be.
Yes, You Have Totally Misrepresemnted Me.
“You ask if it could be possible that a certain vengefulness creeps into Palestinian culture??
You sound like a 19th century western anthropologist presenting the conclusions of his work to the British people, summing up a 'culture' in a few words.
- I tell you my fellow citizens, Palestinian culture is about revenge.
- Thank you Professor for this brilliant insight on Palestinian culture.”
All very well Frantz other than the whole of my post was arguing the very opposite of what you try to portray me as saying here. The post was replying to a point made by Neve, almost identical to that you repeat. The point was to say that yes, it would be surprising BECAUSE OF the oppression etc. that you list suffered by the Palestinian people if some element of vengefulness did not creep into their culture. But the whole point of the post was to make the distinction between Palestinian people, and in particular workers, and the fact that EVEN IF this venegefulness does CREEP into the culture it does not form a significant element determining relations between Palestinians and Jews, compared to the interests of the workers of both communities in solidarity with each other, and those organisations such as HAMAS for whom revenge DOES constitute an important element of their politics.
“Is it possible that the Palestinian there are subjected to appalling treatment, humiliation, discrimination, torture and killing?
Is it possible that about 95% of Palestinian children suffer from trauma because of what they are exposed to?
Is it possible that these people are actually fighting for their rights? That they are fighting a racist, violent, aggressive, colonialist policy and ideology?”
Yes, all of that is possible and true as far as the Palestinian people are concerned. I’m not so sure its true of HAMAS. But what does this have to do with the issue udner discussion here. No one as far as I am aware denies these things or opposes the Palestinian struggle in respect of them. What is at issue is the extent to which support for the boycott assists that struggle, to what extent support for clerical-fascist organisations such as HAMAS is something that socialists should be advocating.
“Is it possible that they use their right of resistance to live in better conditions and to achieve self-determination?”
Again I’m sure that this is true for the majority of Palestinians. I question whether it is true in respect of HAMAS or for some of those in this country that support the boycott whoi seem more concerned with revenge against Israel, and whose version of self-determination actually means the destruction of Israel and the creation of a clerical state.
“Is it possible that their fight is about here and now and not about some abstract idea you put in their minds??”
Again I’m sure that as far as the majority of Palestinians are concerned they are concerned with what improves their condition here and now. So am I, which is why I am in favour of the Labour Movement organising humanitarian assitance for Gaza, it is why I am in favour of Palestinian workers and Jewish workers campaigning for full democratic rights for Palestinians both inside Israel and the Occupied Territories. But tell us how does the boycott do anyhting to improve the condiitons of Palestinians HERE and NOW. It doesn’t. In fact it does the opposite. And for those Palestinians working in and dependent on the Israeli economy it will likely make things considerably worse.
“Do you even deny these people the right to resist to what is actually happening??”
What a ridiculous thing to say. Have you actually bothered to read anything I have said in previous posts specifically to the need to concentrate on opposing here and now the oppression of Palestinians?
“So you dont necessarily oppose the cut of all aid and economic relationships with Hamas by the western countries. That says a lot about what you think of democracy. I suppose you should know better what democracy is about. You live in the West after all. We still need to teach small nations what its all about.
So anyway, im glad to see that you dont make opposing boycott a principle. It does not seem to bother you so much when it comes to boycotting Palestinians”
What a fascinating way to interpret my statement that I OPPOSE any boycott of the PA. Perhaps you could tell us how you can support one and oppose another. As for democracy and the granting of aid I repeat what I have said before. Adolph Hitler was demcoratically elected, I see no reason why workers would have wanted their taxes to be used by their governments to finance his regime. Used to finance workers oppressed by that regime certainly, but the two things are clearly different.
“Is that your idea of what socialists should do then? Deal with the humanitarian crisis? Watch Israel ruining Palestinian economy, creating political instability, occupying the country, etc...?
Then denounce the resistance as being vengeful clerical-fascism, condemn it, but deal with the humanitarian crisis??”
I certainly think that the Labour Movement internationally SHOULD deal with the plight of the Palestinians, should use all of the machinery of that movement to raise money provide supplies, and organise trasnport to provide those supplies directly to Palestinians, yes. But if you took the trouble to read what I have said, rather than simply looking for snippets to take out of context and misrepresent you would have seen all of the instances of the call for the defence and promotion of full democratic rights for Palestinians, within which opposition to their current oppression cannot be divorced! But yes, they also have a duty to put forward a socialist solution, not to simply tail and give succour to the clerical-fascist forces such as HAMAS. That is what is completely missing from your position.
Arthur Bough
wow!
I've never read more reactionary stuff than this from a supposingly 'left' organization. The Zionist left is discredited, the new generation of progressive Jews in Palestine have no illusions about the apartheid nature of this state. We grew up watching it being constructed. Nobody is isolating Israel, Israel is doing so with its own actions. 40-60 years of occupation / apartheid have done nothing and the Israeli two-state 'left' is marginalized and ignored. They have no links with the Palestinian youth. Progressive Jewish youth in Palestine support the boycott. Sad that this sect of yours feels the right to pontificate on these matters in such an ill reasoned way.
Regards,
Neve - yafa palestine
Do They
You say progressive Jewish youth in Palestine - do you mean Palestine as in the Occupied territories or do you mean Israel - support the boycott. What evidecne do you have for that? I think the reality is that your position is very much a minority one.
Arthur Bough
arthur - you're so funny
Haha... Arthur, again you're using racist criteria: #1 there are 10-million Palestinians the overwhelming majority of whom support boycott, as well as hundreds of millions of working class people throughout the world who also support the boycott (mostly in Arab and Islamic countries). So how is this a minority position? ; #2 I am living in yafa, which was a majority palestinian city until it was ethnically cleansed... do you say my palestinian friends that now live in squalid refugee camps like balata have no right to return? #3 yes, i said progressive jewish youth throughout historic palestine, not those who serve in the military or who support the colonization of palestinian lands, but since you're obviously partial to the oppinions of racists, then i can't really engage in a real discussion with you
any really progressive position has to begin with a condemnation of all forms of racism, not just selective indignation at supposed 'anti-semitism'....
hahaa... can you please find me one working class palestinian that supports the AWL's ridiculous position! probably not, i live here and don't know of any... but maybe in your fantasy world its better to align with 'working class' people like Tzipi Livni, Tony Blair, or George W. Bush...
Regards,
Neve, Yafa - Palestine
"Ridiculous position"?
Neve asks "can you please find me one working class palestinian that supports the AWL's ridiculous position! "
Neve it seems rejects the position of AWL that they have had now for over 20 years as "ridiculous." He seems to forget that the PLO supported the 2 state solution as a result of Oslo.
Maybe Neve himself is racist? He uses the term "Palestinian" implying Jews cannot be Palestinian. There are plenty of Jews living in historic Palestine (Israel) that were born before 1948 and many of them are for a two state solution. Maybe Neve has no consideration whatsoever for the Jewsih position. It seems that there are many things that Neve is not aware of.
mikey
hey mikey... for the record i self-identify as a jewish palestinian. there are christian, muslim and jewish palestinians living throughout historic palestine so i don't know what you're talking about. yes, the plo 'accepted' this during a very questionable session of the PNA... there was no referendum on the fundamental terms of an agreement. it's clear what the majority of palestinians ask for:
1. withdrawal of israel to 1967 borders (note they could ask for 1948 borders, but aren't doing so), including evacuation of settlements;
2. right of return of palestinian refugees;
3. full rights for palestinians living inside of israel;
it's up to people to decide if they want one or two states, but lets not mince words about what the palestinian program is - i.e. achieving their fundamental rights and reversing the impact of british imperialism on the region. progressive jewish people have no problem supporting such a position, so why should you?
as for the AWL's position... they were clearly just as racist 20 years ago on this question as they are today... (show me once when the PLO abandoned the right of return)? it didn't happen, and it shouldn't happen because its a fundamental human right...
Hee, hee, hee
Neve, it seems to me you haven't got an argument ho ho, so instead you twist what people have said, then make up your own version of what they beleive, who they support guffaw guffaw.
You said your position was a majority amongst progressive JEWISH youth. I questioned that, and your reply is to accuse me of ignoring Palestinians!!! Howl howl.
As for Palestinian refugees I would suggest to you that they have been at least as badly treated by their Arab brethren such as the Jordanians, and even now by the Lebanese. The issue of an unrestricted right of return cannot be taken out of isolation from whether this is just a means of overturning the existing state of Israel. The fact is that no existing state would simply open its borders in circumstances where it would effeectively result in the overturning of that state. Were it the case that such an eventuality would not be part of inevitable pogroms against Jews in Israel, were it not for the likelihood given the current political condiitons that this would lead to the establishment of a reactionary Islamist state, then this question could be dealt with in its own right. But it can't.
The idea that I or the AWL support George Bush or any of the other reactionaries you mention simply demonstrates that lacking any credible argument you are reduced to just slinging any old mud to hand. Both I and the AWL defend the democratic rights of the Palestinains. The AWL believe that requires the establishment of a separate Palestinian state, I don't.
But the fact remains that the two-states solution is supported by a majority of Palestinians as against the reactionary genocidal war against Israel solution that you propose. At least in that regard the majority of Palestinians are way ahead of you.
Arthur Bough
non historic peoples?
Arthur: you're a racist. You quote approvingly some of the most reactionary passages from Engels about Slavic people. It's clear the world consists of 'untermenschen' for you and you group the Palestinians in there. You simply don't support the positions of majority left factions. And yes, I say the majority of progressive Jewish youth, not the majority of Zionist socialist youth... Because there's a big difference...
And as for treatment by other Arab governments, I never excused it, but it doesn't change the fact who the primary culprit for the condition of the Palestinians is.
And yes, you're a complete idiot if you think the principle of one person, one vote is a 'genocidal' solution... this is the same kind of racist paranoia that prevented white Afrikaners from yielding power to the black majority in south africa. Have the Afrikaners been wiped out? Was there an anti-Afrikaner 'genocide'?
Your logic is really twisted my friend...
Non Logical People
I don't know about non historic, but I am coming to the conclusoin that you are incapable of putting forward a logical argument. Your whole approach seems to be to twist and turn to evade, to misrepresnt what the other person has said, to put words in their mouth and so on. I will not even stoopp to responding to your ridiculous slur that I am a racist.
I note that you do not accuse Engels of being a racist, yet I am a racist for quoting him. Of course, were you to make that charge you would have to say the same thing about Lenin who quoted Marx and Engels position approvingly in demonstrating his own position on the question of self-determination.
Neither the position I have outlined nor the position put forward by Marx and Engels has anything to do with "untermenschen", it has everything to do with the basic philosophy of Marxism - historical materialism. If my position were the racist position you try to slur me with I would not be demanding democratic rights for Palestinians would I?
On the question of what Jewish organisations support your position again you become slippery. Prevuiously you wanted to include Palestinians in your definition!, now you want to exclude Zionist youth. But of course, the term Zionist in your hands could mean anyone that simply disagrees with you, and of course then you are guaranteed a majority.
You then say "you're a complete idiot if you think the principle of one person, one vote is a 'genocidal' solution..". But where the fuck has one person one vote entered into this discussion over the destruction of Israel. The only person that has raised the issue of one person one vote, is me that has demanded it, here and now for Palestinians as part of a struggle for full democratic rights within the state they have been living for the last 40 years.
The destruction of Israel is not a matter of one person, one vote, it is a matter of the fact that Jews in Israel will not accept a single state in which they are a minority within the existing conditions in the area, because quite sensibly they realise that such a state would mean their inevitable oppression at the hands of people like HAMAS. If the majority of Jews will not voluntarily accept such a solution then the only way it coud be brought about would be against their will i.e. by force, by a genocidal war.
Your comparison with South Africa is a complete red herring. Firstly, the whites in South Africa were a small minority. Secondly, there was nothing in the history and politics of the ANC that suggested that such pogroms were likely. Had there been then socialists might have had to take a position on what the best solution for white workers in South Africa would be. Certainly, with hindishgt socialists should perhaps have been more critical of ZANU-PF in Zimbabwe, where such pogroms have taken place, and have been a part of a general reactionary politics of the government there. A lesson all socialists should bear in mind in not simply falling in behind the politics of whoever presents themselves as fighters for liberation and self-determination.
Its not my logic that is twisted, its your failure to face reality squarely that simply makes it look that way.
Arthur Bough
Neve please lets have a civilized debate
Do you really know that all Palestinians support boycott? Did anybody ask them?
Palestinians suffered and suffer a lot, because some of their leaders misled them. For instance Hadj Amin el Husseini, who collaborated with the German National-socialists , but also other leaders
Why is it racist, to make a difference between Israel and the occupied territories?
Do you mean Israel has no right to exist and Jews have no right to self-determination?
Finally is there between Tsipi Livni and yourself and the small group you belong probably nobody else in Israel? Is there not a majority in Israel for a two state solution?
Please do not come with the legend of Apartheid in Israel. I have been as a visitor in Hadassah hospital Ein Kerem Jerusalem and was treated by an Arab doctor and my neighbour was an Arab from a neighbouring country. I have been a guest at the house of a Muslim Arab whose wife is Jewish. Neve, can you tell me an Arab country where a Christian or a Jew can live together with a Muslim woman?
So please climb down and try to see reality as it is. Sean has written an excellent article. To make a sweeping condemnation, that the article is reactionary is not a serious argument.
Omar.. thanks for the reply
Yes... of course... There are Jewish communities in other Arab countries. Lets not buy all the Zionist propaganda. AS for apartheid Israel, what happened to the citizenship laws, is the LAw of Return racist or not? Can Palestinians marry Palestinians in the West Bank? Or will the Israeli state not let them? What about property ownership? Can a Palestinian be a member and live on a kibbutz? Do they have the same access to land ownership and building permits? And as for Palestinians and the boycott: http://www.pacbi.org/boycott_news_more.php?id=66_0_1_10_M11
That's all i really have to say... :)
Yes, I've worked with Ta'ayush, Anarchists Against the Wall, Israeli Colaitoin Against House Demolitions, Workers' Advice Center etc. .... SO yeah... thanks for asking....
As for apartheid, again, don't ask me ask John Duggard, ask COSATU, ask Desmond Tutu (even ask Jimmy Carter!)...
Omar what are the laternatives your proposing?
lets not talk about "Zionist propaganda" but about facts
Your answer Neve is astonishing. I have asked you, if a Christian or a Jew can marry in an Arab country a Muslima. Your answer is that there are Jewish communities in other Arab countries. And lets not buy all the Zionist propaganda. Which is as heavy an argument, as the one about Sean’s article being reactionary. If you would travel to Egypt and speak with Copts you would get the answer that no Copt can marry a Muslima or live with her. And that is not Zionist propaganda. It looks to me; as if you do not know much about the region you live in.
Now what was the reason for the return law? It was the experience Jews made during the years 1933 to 1945 when no society except the Jewish one in Palestine was ready to accept Jews and the British issued in 1939 when Jews needed a place to go, the White Book, and limited severely the Jewish immigration to Palestine. So Neve tell me, was it good that the Jews of Palestine tried to get in persecuted Jews from Europe, or was it a mistake?
The Palestinian leader Amin el Husseini wrote from Berlin where he stayed from 1941 until 1945 several letters to the governments of Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria asking them not to let emigrate Jewish children to Palestine. Yasser Arafat admired his whole life this man and many Palestinians admire him until today. Was el Husseini right to ask this and to ask his friend Heinrich Himmler to kill more Jews or was he not right?
It is worth to remember, that in 1939 the Soviet Union handed over to the Gestapo about 1000 German communists, a high proportion of it Jewish. One should also remember the antisemitic campaigns during the early fifties in Czechoslovakia, GDR, Poland, USSR, and of course the antisemitic purge in Poland in 1968.
So the historic reason for the law of return is the historic need of Jews to have at least one country, to which they can emigrate if necessary.
Is the citizenship law of Germany racist, because it prefers those who are ethnic or cultural Germans? If yes, how comes, that this is not criticised by the German (and European) left?
Of course Palestinians can marry Palestinians in the West Bank, if they are Muslim men. A Christian Palestinian cannot marry a Muslima in the West Bank. And an Israeli Muslim can also marry a Muslima in the West Bank and stay there with his wife. As long as there is a terror danger, because of security reasons entry of non-Israelis to Israel can be restricted. Such is the policy in a number of countries, where such problems exist. But in most countries of the European Union, there is a quota for the entry of non EU-citizens, and a married man must often wait for years until he gets the permit for his wife to enter.
About property: If someone has a complaint, he/she can go to the High Court of Justice and get a solution, if injustice was done.
Now I am not saying that there is no injustice and discrimination in Israel, but one cannot divorce this from the fact, that it is the only country threatened by annihilation. So there is a civil society in Israel several NGOs fighting discrimination. It would certainly be a good thing if there would be one ideal country in the world. Unfortunately there is none. And if I look around in the EU I can see a lot of discrimination despite the fact, that here we have peace. But if you say that injustice should be fought everywhere I agree with you. In Israel this can be done and it is done. And reading Haaretz one can find every day at least a couple of critical articles. Can you say as much about Palestinian society?
hahaa.a.... omar, you're too funny...
israel = " the only country threatened by annihilation. "
tell me how this is true?
dr congo, invaded by US allies = 4-million dead --> that's a country threatened by annhilation....
iraq = bombed, sanctioned, attacked occupied, 1-million dead from sanctions, 600,000 dead from the occupation, 4-million refugees --> that's a country threatened by annihilation...
yugoslavia = wiped off the map when NATO backed right-wing secessionist, 130,000 citizens killed, 2-million displaced --> now that's a country that was annihilated;
israel =
- wiped out 450 paletinian villages and expelled 750-900,000 palestinians on its foundation (i.e. is based on the annhilation of an entire community);
- engaged in a series of aggressive wars against its arab neighbors (roughly 100,000 killed)
- keeps 4.5-million people in open air prisons and policy makers openly muse about expulsion or starvation tactics to use....
let's get a sense of reality / perspective...
yes. israel is a racist state. don't ask me, just ask the UN special raporteur for the palestinian territories, john dugard about it : israel = colonialism, racism, apartheid...
and yeah... it also has 200 nukes and the 4th biggest military... so where / how is it threatened?
i live in israel and the fact is that:
- roughly 40% of israelis think 'transfer' is a 'good' solution
- roughly 50% don't want to live next to an arab,
- and yes, the israeli state legislates descrimination in citizenship, land-ownership, and marriage laws... so i don't understand what you're saying... black and white and coloured people also 'mixed' in south africa nad jim crow USA... are you going to tell me those systems weren't racist because a handful of isolated examples? this is too funny...
glad i'm not living in your delusional world :)
Look arround you Neve
This morning radio news. 17 Palestinians killed by Palestinians within 24 hours in Gaza strip.
Did you ever hear Israel Radio or TV preaching to kill Arabs?
Do you speak Arabic? Did you ever watch preachers in mosque on PA TV preaching to kill Jews who hide behind a stone and behind a tree? Do you want me to give you the links?
If 50 % of Israelis do not want to live next to an Arab, does this probably has to do with the fact, that there is terror perpetrated in their country?
You see in Israel only faults. Is that a realistic view?
In Europe racist parties are sometimes successful in elections, in France they failed fortunately on Sunday. And Europe is living in peace.
Please keep to the facts. The UN General Assembly resolution to partition Palestine in November 1947 was welcomed by the Jews of Palestine and by the Palestine communist party. Arab communists were for the founding of two states, one Jewish the other Arab. Palestinians would have been spared much misery, if their point of view would have had been accepted. When Arabs started to attack Jews in Palestine under the eyes of the British, a civil war started Hundred of thousands of Arabs fled and Ten thousands of Jews. From the 650000-750000 refugees about 60.000 were expelled during a war, which was started by Arab states with the help of British Imperialism. While in Israel after 1948 150.000 Arabs could stay, not one Jew was allowed to stay in the Jordan and Egypt occupied part of Palestine.
So lets not rewrite history Neve
yes... omar... please give your right-wing memri links
omar... this is tired old right-wing Zionist propaganda. at least the AWL try to use racist quotations from the Marx-engels 'canon' to justify their opposition to self-determination and their praise for israeli settler colonialism....
as for the partition plan, i will mention the racism of the position again : the UN at the time was presiding over a colonialist world where the majority of african and asian nations didn't have a vote... i know the oppinions of 80% of the world's population don't matter for the AWL racists and their friends like you omar... but they do for progressive humanity everywhere...
You're a chauvinist Israeli
You're a chauvinist Israeli Omar. New historian makes clear that many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians was expelled by Zionist militias in 1948.
Do you know that many MK, like Avigdor Lieberman, preaches the expulsion of Palestinians and the hate of Arabs. If I understand well your thoughts Palestinians are responsible for the racism in Israel? Palestinians are only responsible for the situation, the occupation and Israeli war crimes? Israel is pure as snow?
It's a real shame that Workers Liberty doesn't reply to you. In French we said "Qui ne dit mot consent".
qui ne dit mot consent
Meme si on ne peut pas tenir the AWL responsables de tous les posts ici, je suis plutot bien d'accord avec toi sur ce point.
Bien le bonjour au canada...
You ignore many facts of history
You ignore that Israël rejected many peace proposals, like Rogers Plan in 1969, peace offers of Sadate in 1971, Fahd Plan in 1981 and Saudi Plan in 2002. And now Israel refuse to allow the creation of genuine Palestinian state.