The Iraqi labour movement comes first!
Sean Matgamna replies to Barry Finger’s On anti-war slogans: lessons from two wars (Solidarity 3-81)
SHOULD WE “DEMAND” CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ?
Almost all the the likely scenarios in Iraq are in varying degrees unfavourable for the labour movement. They will go on being unfavourable until a strong labour movement emerges and can create new possibilities; begin to make the working class the subject of politics and history rather than what it is now, their object and their victim. For that the Iraqi labour movement must survive and develop, organisationally and politically.
Socialists do not just mechanically take our “line” even from semi-co-thinkers in Iraq. We have to make our own understanding of the situation. But we take into account what working class people in Iraq say.
The Kurdish leaders want US troops to stay. The Shia alliance talked of troops out in the campaign for the 30 January elections, but the elected government (elected by a large majority, and contrary to the USA’s preferences) has shelved that. In any case it was a “general position” for troops out — like ours — not a call for “Troops Out Now”. Some Shia call for troops out, perhaps meaning immediately, and some do not, though in general the troops are very unpopular.
The Sunni Arabs are generally for troops out, meaning now, though some differentiation may be taking place there now.
Thus, outside the Sunni Arab areas, by no means a clear choice for Troops Out Now. It is left to the kitsch left to line up with the most intransigent of the Sunni Arabs and with the Al Qaeda people speculating that they would benefit out of chaos. It is left to the kitsch-left to shout: bring on the catastrophe — now!
The immediate or, in Barry Finger’s expression, “precipitous” withdrawal of the occupying troops would, most likely, lead to three-way sectarian (Sunni, Shia) and national (Kurdish) civil war.
The Sunni-supremacists and Ba’thists at the core of the “resistance” could not again emerge as the dominant force in Iraq without conquering Shia Iraq and the Kurds. From such a civil war, Shia southern Iraq would, perhaps, emerge as a theocracy akin to and protected by Iran. The Kurds might hold their own, or Turkey might invade the Kurdish territories, as two years ago it was threatening to do.
In those conditions, the nascent Iraqi labour movement — which is our central concern — would probably be destroyed.
The opposite is not necessarily true: that if the occupation continues, there will be no civil war, no theocracy, no destruction of the labour movement, no bloody disintegration of the Iraqi entity. In fact the chances of a “good” outcome from the destruction of Saddam Hussein’s regime and the occupation have in the last two and a half years grown less, without as yet having entirely disappeared. But a “precipitous” withdrawal would maximise the chances of destruction for the labour movement.
AWL was against the war. We preach “no political trust or confidence” in the American, British, or any ruling class, in their states, their politicians, or their armies. We analyse the motives of the American, British and other ruling classes in their dealings with Iraq; solidarise with the new Iraqi labour movement wherever it clashes with the occupiers; indict US/UK misdeeds unsparingly; say to those Iraqi socialists whom we can reach and to people in Britain that they cannot rely on the US and UK to bring democracy. We long ago, before the war, pointed out that the occupation of Iraq would not curb Islamist terrorism. That is enough for now.
We say that the peoples of Iraq must have self-determination. We maintain a stance of hostility to the troops and we do not call on the British and Americans to stay.
What we refuse to do, and it is the crux of our dispute with Barry Finger, is raise a “demand”, Troops Out Now, whose likely, calculable, practical consequences we do not want. Which may well bring on a catastrophe that will abort all the possibilities that the rising labour movement is opening for the working class of Iraq. (And for the region, perhaps, where, though there is a powerful working class, there is scarcely any labour movement except in Israel — at best, some elements of a labour movement, among the Palestinians, in Lebanon).
The behaviour of the occupying forces — the senseless brutality and slaughter of Iraqi civilians, the economic looting by the US rulers, the arrogance, the casual deployment of lethal firepower against civilians, and the sheer all-round epoch-defining ineptitude — has piled up, is piling up, enormous barriers against any “benign” scenario.
The only reason for not now deciding that the best thing is that the US, Britain, etc. should just get out is that that would calculably be to give up all hope for anything less bad than the scenario of three-way civil war and destruction of the labour movement. Things are not at that stage yet; but, the way they are doing, they may go that far.
Are slogans “principles”?
Barry Finger’s politics on Iraq are in fact quite close to those of the “anti-war movement”. His distinction between Troops Out and being for the victory of the reactionary Iraqi “resistance” is largely a notional one. The slogan Troops Out Now is inescapably, a siding with the reactionary resistance. Who else does he think would gain “now” from the troops disappearing “now”?
But he argues — if I understand him — that the slogan “Troops Out of Iraq Now” is a matter of principle. In doing so, he paints himself into a political corner from which, in terms of the reasonings and arguments he presents, there is no escape.
He more or less admits that “precipitous” withdrawal of the foreign troops would be likely to lead to the destruction of the Iraqi labour movement by the forces of Ba’thist-fascist and clerical-fascist reaction.
Nonetheless, he insists that if we let calculations about the practical, concrete — Iraqi! — meaning of “Troops Out Now”, inhibit us from demanding “the immediate withdrawal of imperialist forces”, then we are
• engaging in an impermissible “ideological compromise” with imperialism;
• “blatantly support[ing]” and engaging in “an interim appeasement programme towards the status quo on this side of the imperialist battle lines”;
• engaging in an objective united front with imperialism; relying on a provisional and tactical military reliance on imperialism”;
• seeking a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism without actually advocating it”;
• and may wind up going over to Blairism.
Ours is not to reason, calculate, or calibrate, and still less to decide on slogans and “demands” according to an analysis of the concrete situation and what they mean, or will most likely mean, in that situation. There are slogans that are above and outside of all such political calculations. We must raise a slogan whose calculable practical consequences, if it were to be implemented, neither Barry nor we want!
What’s wrong with what he says?
It is far too abstract. It conflates propaganda and agitation. It resides up in the clouds somewhere, far too high above the ground. It displays too little concern for the Iraqi labour movement.
Barry Finger “blurs” and fudges what for us is, in Iraq as in all other situations, the central question — the working class, the labour movement, and their fate.
He writes:
“In truth, there can be no guarantees that such a precipitous withdrawal would not lead to the very disaster the AWL “fears.” “Guarantees” implies that there is, if not a “guarantee”, at least a fair chance that the Iraqi labour movement would survive.
If there is a chance, it is a very slim one.
It is not a matter of AWL unreasonably demanding “guarantees” from current history, but of whether socialists should “demand” that the USA and Britain act in a way that will most likely ensure the worst consequences of their destruction of the vile Ba’thist state.
At issue between AWL and Barry Finger is not whether socialists should give the US/ UK positive political support or political confidence, or forget for now who, socially and politically, and what they are. We don’t do any of these things. It is whether we gauge the concrete meaning of a slogan like Troops Out Now, and decide on its use accordingly, or make a fetish of it. Whether we use such slogans as tools or as a set of authoritative instructions to be blindly obeyed and served, to be raised mechanically without regard to their meaning in a given situation.
Why would sensible people, non-religious people fetishise such slogans?
The political corner Barry Finger has painted himself into, and into which he invites us to step, rising above our “political frailties”, “ideological compromises”, and objective united front with imperialism, is defined on one of its three sides by his admission that “precipitous” US-British withdrawal may mean the destruction of the Iraqi labour movement.
Its second side is defined by his belief — if I understand him — that Troops Out Now, is a matter of basic principle, whose absence in any situation amounts to a de facto denial of self-determination.
Its third and final side is Barry Finger’s belief that any notion of the Iraqi labour movement being able to benefit from, take advantage of, or find space to breath, think and grow, inside the present occupation — even temporarily — means basing ourselves on imperialism, and compromising with it ideologically. (So, if the new Iraqi labour movement has benefited from the US-British destruction of the Saddam regime — and it undeniably has, since 2003 — it would be better had it never come into existence? That is what the reactionary “anti-imperialists” say. But Barry Finger?
Barry Finger traps himself — against all his intentions, instincts, and beliefs, of course — into not only an absurd, but also an anti-working-class position.
The Iraqi labour activists will just have to be stoical, bear their fate bravely, and understand that though we reach the same conclusions as the reactionary “anti-imperialists” shouting for “Troops Out Now” and thereby succouring the Saddamists and clerical fascists, our motive is different — to put ourselves in the best position to resist the “gravitational pull” of imperialism.
Brutus and Cassius both stab Caesar, but for different motives. If Brutus explains to the dying man that he was motivated by higher goals than those of the jealous Cassius and his friends, Caesar will understand and die happy…
I suggest that there must be something radically wrong either with comrade Finger’s reasoning or else with the “principles” that lead to these conclusions.
calls to action
We are rightly chary of making positive demands on the big powers. We would not try to tell them what to do next in Iraq, for example. But when it comes to negatives, we have no limits!
We can’t tell the US/UK what we would like them to do to ensure the best outcome, because we know that they act for their own reasons and objectives, which are not ours - we have no illusions about that, and do not want to teach others to have illusions. Yes - but we must on principle tell them to act to bring on the worst outcome?
We do not, and do not want to, shout positive “orders” to them — “get more Iraqis killed”, “get Iraqi trade unionists shot”. But we can, do, and on principle must shout the same “orders” to them in negative form?
Excuse me — why?
Because some of our slogans are not slogans, formulas whose use is regulated by what they might mean in a given situation, but fetishes outside of history and of society?
We, AWL, refuse to take that approach. I know of no respect-worthy Marxist in the past who did.
Barry Finger obliterates the necessary distinction between self-determination as a basic programmatic principle for us and one of its possible immediate agitational translations, Troops Out Now. He conflates propaganda and agitation. This is something that the “anti-imperialist”, pro-Iraqi-“resistance” “left” does too.
In part the problem here is the dominant style of left and pseudo-left politics now — tiny propaganda groups, with little or no power to shape events, shouting “instructions” for immediate action to governments, and made reckless by their own powerlessness, because — and they know it, if only subconsciously — what they say will not shape, or in most cases even affect, what happens. That style does not, among Marxists, go back further than the movement against the Vietnam war. It was not, for example, the style of the Trotskyist press in the 1940s.
For instance, after 1945 the Trotskyists demanded self-determination for Germany and that foreign troops should leave, but they didn’t often do that in the form of front-page demands for “Troops Out Now” or whatever.
A major problem with Barry Finger is that the echoes of old 1960s disputes on Vietnam play too large a part in his discussion of Iraq. He lets tactical arguments from then overshadow broader Marxist arguments.
Lenin’s discussion in What Is To Be Done (1902) of the relationship between our theory and propaganda and “calls to action” says a lot to the habits of the left and pseudo-left today.
“To single out a third sphere, or third function, of practical activity, and to include in this function “calling the masses to certain concrete actions”, is sheer nonsense, because the “call”, as a single act, either naturally or inevitably supplements the theoretical tract, propagandist pamphlet and agitational speech, or represents a purely executive function...”
Does the call “Troops Out Now” flow from Barry Finger’s all-round analysis of Iraq? When he concedes that the Iraqi labour movement may (we’d say, will) be destroyed, and sooner rather than later, if the occupation forces scuttle in a “precipitous” withdrawal, he admits it does not.
To make a particular “call to action” our fixed point is to turn our politics upside down. We make no “call to action” on the working class, and still less on anyone else, that does not spin organically and naturally out of our theory, propaganda, programme, and concrete analysis of a situation.
And the meaning of slogans is determined variously by different sets of concrete circumstances. It differs from circumstance to circumstance, and from time to time. Our overall picture of a situation, and of the forces and possibilities in it, determines what “calls to action” are appropriate or inappropriate.
The separation of “calls to action” and would-be catchy slogans from our programme and the general complex of Marxist ideas is one of the most corrosive habits of mind of much of the left today. It has been one of the long-term agents of destruction that has worked its way through, for example. the SWP like syphilis. It has produced what might be called “apparatus Marxism”, “focus-group Marxism”, “party manager’s Marxism” or, to use an older expression for such things, “wire-puller’s Marxism”.
If a slogan (“Troops Out Now”) carries with it the extreme likelihood of disaster for the labour movement (as both Barry Finger and AWL agree, with at most different emphases), then it contradicts our overall concerns. We do not raise it, or we do not raise it in the form that if realised implies disaster.
The general propagandist “position” — that is, the general explanation rather than “call to action” — is enough. We are not obliged to translate the explanation into a “call to action” which will promote forces like the Iraqi “resistance” and help them to turn the would-be summary formula against the fundamental ideas and concerns behind it.
For Marxists there is no slogan that we are obliged to treat as a fetish, something above and outside of its own concrete meaning. The very idea that there might be is ridiculous!
Principles are more or less immutable. How they are broken down into usable slogans or agitational axes is changeable. Slogans are selected not according to the confused idea that they are self-sufficient “principles, but for their immediate effect, concrete application, and practical meaning.
We do not do as the “apparatus Marxists” do and, for calculations of organisational advantage, raise slogans antagonistic to our programme and principles (and, in this case, to the interests of the Iraqi labour movement). The idea that we are obliged to raise or hold to a slogan irrespective of its practical meaning — that, again, is absurd.
In 1920 the Bolsheviks had, as the heirs of Russian Marxism, nearly 40 years — and Lenin, two decades — of sincerely fighting for Poland’s self-determination and its right to independence. I don’t know if that ever took the form of slogans for Russian “Troops Out Now” (I doubt it). But when the Red Army defeated the invading Polish army and chased it deep into Poland — with the intention, in Lenin’s expression, of prodding the German revolution with the bayonet — the slogan “Russian troops out” would have meant not the “democratic affirmation” of self-determination for Poland, but radical opposition to the interests of the Russian workers’ revolution, to its army, and to the international working-class revolution, including that of the Polish workers.
It makes no difference here whether Lenin was right or wrong in his calculations about the advisability of the Red Army pressing into Poland. Events seemed to prove Trotsky’s contrary calculations right. But the Russian workers’ government had a right to refuse to make a fetish of Polish self-determination.
Something higher was involved — the interests of the working class and its revolution. Polish self-determination could easily have been restored — and, if the German workers had taken power, possibly on a higher level, with the Polish working class in power.
The point here is not to compare the US army of today with the Red Army of 1920, but to see that slogans cannot stand apart from and above an overall Marxist analysis. To put it absurdly again: slogans cannot stand higher than their practical meaning!
Barry’s approach — that we are obliged to raise Troops Out Now as an affirmation of democracy and of revolutionary opposition to American imperialism and its British helpers, irrespective of the consequences for the Iraqi labour movement — could only make political sense if “Troops Out Now” embodied a commitment for us higher than the working class and its movement.
I can’t suppose Barry Finger would want to argue that. Yet it is in practice his “position” — that “Troops Out Now” has precedence and priority. It stands above everything else. It has right of way even over the corpse of the Iraqi working-class movement.
Even apart from the fact that Troops Out Now would probably mean, not Iraqi self-determination, but (because there are three “self-determinations”, each in varying degrees hostile to the others) the breaking-apart of Iraq into three statelets through civil war, that does not make socialist or working-class sense.
Democracy is a principle; but self-determination is only one of its forms, and Troops Out Now in turn is only one of self-determination’s possible immediate, sloganised, expressions. Troops Out Now would calculably in fact destroy democratic possibilities.
IMPERIALISM AND REACTIONARY ANTI-IMPERIALISM
Barry Finger seems to rule out the idea that imperialism can bring any progress. That idea amounts to “a provisional and tactical military reliance on imperialism”, etc.
Yet the whole of modern history consists of “progressive” things done by imperialism, from the destruction of fascist totalitarianism to the overthrow, in a different way, of Stalinist totalitarianism! The world we live in would be radically different otherwise.
For sure we give the big capitalist powers no credence, reliance, or confidence in advance. We put forward our own programme in every situation. But we cannot simply say no to the modern world — the world shaped and reshaped, and still being shaped and reshaped, by capitalism and imperialism.
Here, as in our attitude to the concentration and centralisation of capital, or to bourgeois efforts like the European Union, we have to operate within a capitalism that is, relatively, progressive — i.e. doing in its own brutal, predator’s, way, things that take society forward and the immediate alternative to which is reactionary (for example, a return to the walled-off nation-states of pre-EU Europe). We do not and should not relate to those developments by raising slogans which, though they oppose capitalism and imperialism, also “oppose” and contradict what we want, and would take us backward.
Barry Finger warns us “against seeking a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism without actually advocating it”. Again — why? Does he think we should turn our backs on capitalism and start a new society somewhere from scratch?
Our entire world — the world we say can be the basis from which the working class can build socialism — is built on the crimes of class society. The cities of Liverpool and Bristol were built on the slave trade. Early British capitalism accumulated its wealth from the slave trade, piracy against the Spanish pirates and plunderers of Mexico and Peru, and from pillage and genocidal wars in Ireland. European civilisation, on the achievements of which we propose to build socialism, rests on a gigantic mound of human skulls and bones!
Imperialism — that is, advanced capitalism, the dominant force in the world — amidst its horrors, and sometimes by way of its horrors — has done things on which socialists try to build. World War Two and its aftermath are the clearest example. In Europe, American and British imperialism — consider all that needs to be said about their reactionary policies, their enslavement of colonies, etc., said — cut down the totalitarian Nazi geno-imperialism and recreated bourgeois democracy.
In 1940 the labour movement in Europe was everywhere — except in Switzerland, Sweden, Britain, and Ireland — smashed, reduced to weak underground movements, most of them dominated by Stalinist totalitarians. Modern Europe, with its tremendously powerful and potentially world-transforing labour movement, re-emerged under the wing of British and American imperialism. (Yes, of course, peoples resisted the Nazis, struggled, and perhaps by their struggle expanded and broadened the bourgeois-democratic systems that emerged).
Better things would have been possible had we been stronger, had Stalinism not existed? Yes, and our comrades advocated those things. They were right to advocate them and counterpose them what the bourgeois-imperialists did.
Better, in those times, had the European working class asserted itself as an independent “class for itself” and overthrown capitalism, and driven out the occupying armies of Roosevelt-Truman, Churchill-Attlee, and Salin. But it would have been metaphysics-saturated political idiocy for European socialists (and socialists in Japan too, of course) to have foresworn “seeking social and political gain” from the bourgeois-democratic systems and the re-risen labour movements because they were “tainted” by their origins in the victory of American and British imperialism.
The system in Western Europe by, say, 1949 was immense progress, not direct socialist progress, but immense progress nonetheless, compared to 1940 or 1944, above all for the potentialities it opened up for the working-class movement. One of the things that derailed post-Trotsky “orthodox Trotskyism” was its incapacity to understand that and adjust to it.
Our attitude to such progress cannot be different from our attitude to, say, the economic progress which happens under a capitalist system which we want to overthrow, which we believe should and could have been overthrown long ago, and which we continue to work to overthrow.
We extend to the rulers of the USA and Britain no political credit in advance. We criticise them from our own socialist and consistently democratic point of view for what they do and don’t do, and for what they license and acquiesce in. We maintain towards them the stance of mortally hostile communist opponents of bourgeois society.
Nonetheless, we recognise — all of us but the most moon-struck or Mars-dwelling “revolutionary Marxists” — and utilise the imperialist-fostered bourgeois-democratic progress in Western Europe.
Granted, in Iraq now, the odds are lengthening against there being a Japan or Germany-like transformation as a result of the US invasion. We did not call on Bush or Blair to go and effect that transformation. We did not support their war. If they decide to go soon, we will not raise the slogan “don’t go, it’s too soon”. But we recognised the possibilities and discriminated between them. Many things are now possible for the sole superpower.
And in any case, now, today, the Iraqi labour movement has some space to operate in. If the “resistance” should triumph, it will have none.
(Discussion of the possibilities in Solidarity may have helped generate the neo-con nonsense of poor Alan Johnson and the Labour Friends of Iraq. But what makes them what they are, and what divides them from us, is their abandonment of an independent working-class, Third-Camp, stance in relation to Blair and Bush — their political capitulation to Blairism, capitalism, and imperialism. None of that necessarily follows from even the most optimistic expectations from the US-British occupation of Iraq. Johnson’s political collapse was not occasioned by any logical extension or increment of what they have in common with us on Iraq.)
If I understand him, Barry Finger also thinks the slogan Troops Out Now is an essential tool for the democratic education of the anti-war movement.
I grant that it would make intervention in that movement easier. Yes, accepting their fundamental slogan would of course do that, on the level of getting us a friendlier hearing! But it could only have a miseducational effect.
To make our assessment about the consequences to the labour movement if the imperialists “precipitously” pull out — that is “appeasement” claims Barry. Of whom? Of what? Of the status quo.
So to refuse to deny or be indifferent to the likely consequences of a “precipitous” destruction of the status quo is... appeasement... of the status quo. Unless we contradict the “status quo and demand its immediate destruction , irrespective of the consequences and of what, specifically, the immediate alternative to the status quo is, we are appeasing it? But then we — and Barry Finger — appease many, many status quos!
For example, not demanding the immediate abolition of the bourgeois police force — and never mind what replaces it, or that we are not yet in a position to provide a better alternative — is surely an appeasement of the status quo of the bourgeois state. Imagine! Not calling for “abolition of the police now” in the USA, where the police are as a rule a lot worse than their British counterparts (despite the general destruction of civil liberties and the increased arming of the police here)! Imagine an anarchist waxing indignant about it. You appease the filthy bourgeois police, the thugs, bullies, and racists who beat Rodney King and god knows how many others, away from the cameras! Shame on you! Cops out now!
The difference is in the foreign deployment of the troops — in someone else’s country? But one of the objections we would make to the “anti-war” movement is that it teaches young people indifference to all but their own British (or American) concerns - and never mind the consequences in Iraq. They operate double standards. At the root of that is the old invertebrate “liberal” idea that one cannot expect better from backward peoples, be they the people of Stalin’s Russia or those of Cuba today. Such “tolerance” overseas of what “we” would not want at home is something akin to racism. The “anti-war”, “pro-resistance” left is rife with it.
I think Barry Finger — his language and his theorising demonstrate it — has here climbed so far up the ladder of generality and abstraction that he can’t see the ground.
THE SHACHTMANITES
Barry Finger sees what we are saying and doing through the prism of old experience with the Shachtman group during the Vietnam war. He finds our reasoning “eerily familiar”.
“Namely, that the occupation provides the forces of Iraqi democracy with the necessary breathing spell during which it can reorganize and fortify itself for the democratic task of social reconstruction, which only it can see through to fruition”.
That may be Max Shachtman in his last years; but it isn’t AWL!
“By refusing to call for the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of all occupation forces, [AWL] is…. seeking a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism without actually advocating it. Can the AWL realistically expect to withstand the gravitational pull that such ideological compromises exerted over previous generations of socialist militants?”
The difference in approach between Barry and us is again clear here. Barry is heavily concerned with slogans, demands, and postures that will allow the revolutionary militants to resist hostile “gravitational pulls”.
You cannot be a Marxist and argue for a slogan on the grounds of its usefulness to you in resisting uncongenial pressures, apart from whether it makes sense in terms of reality. That way lies confusion, irresponsibility, and irrelevance.
Can we resist the “gravitational pull”? Cut through the superstitious dread, and what “pull” are we talking about here? The “pull” of admitting that the imperialists are not always and everywhere reactionary, or the most reactionary? That there are forces more reactionary — the Sunni supremacists and political Islamists, for example?
If we were to resist the “pull” of the powers that rule the world only by closing our eyes to such facts — if we felt obliged to pretend that everything about the bourgeoisie and bourgeois society is reactionary, and that there is nothing more reactionary in the political world — then we would be paying too high a price for anti-imperialist, or even anti-capitalist, virtue. We would also be setting ourselves up to collapse if and when reality more complex than we have recognised breaks through — a very common experience with naive revolutionaries.
The basic question here is one dealt with by Marx in the Critique of the Gotha Programme: is the whole of bourgeois society, apart from the working class, “one reactionary mass”. Marx rejected the idea:
“In the Communist Manifesto it is said: ‘Of all the classes that stand face to face with the bourgeoisie today, the proletariat alone is a really revolutionary class’... [But] the bourgeoisie is here conceived as a revolutionary class — as the bearer of large-scale industry — relative to the feudal lords and the lower middle class, who desire to maintain all social positions that are the creation of obsolete modes of production...”
The short answer to Barry Finger’s fears for our political future is that we feel no gravitational pull towards the bourgeoisie or its system as a result of recognising that this system, towards which we are mortally antagonistic, is not always and everywhere, and not in every single thing, only or simply reactionary, and that there are in some situations, more reactionary things.
Such things as the installation of bourgeois democracy in post-1945 western Europe and Japan have been done by the imperialistic bourgeoisie. If that was reactionary, then it was so only compared to what the working class could have achieved if better mobilised; but it was not so mobilised.
Recognising such facts does not affect our fundamental hostility to capitalism and to bourgeois society. It sharpens and sustains our hostility — hostility to what they really are, as they really are, unalloyed with the patently false idea that everything in the bourgeois-dominated world is today reactionary, or the most reactionary thing is possible.
APPARATUS MARXISM
One of the most politically corrupting and debilitating things on the left today is what might be called “apparatus Marxism” — the method of choosing and changing slogans in order to promote the growth and influence of the organisation.
In what way does what Barry says about the supposed need to adopt the slogan “Troops Out Now” in order to protect ourselves against the “gravitational pull” of uncongenial forces differ from apparatus Marxism? In principle I can’t see that it differs at all.
We cannot adopt a slogan concerning Iraq or any other political question for reasons of our own organisational self-promotion, or because it helps us resist a “gravitational pull”. Of course it is important to resist the gravitational pull of the bourgeoisie, but that is a matter of having an overall picture which determines our basic posture towards the ruling power even when it does, or may be doing, something that is, or may be, itself desirable.
While honestly evaluating and recording what is happening, we give the bourgeoisie no positive political support; we give them no credence or credit to go on and consistently do “what’s right”; we distinguish between our reasons for wanting, or assessing as positive, something that they are doing, and their own reasons, their overall programme, their “context” for it. In short we continually point out who and what they are, who and what we are, and what the working class must be.
Thus we create a rounded, realistic, revolutionary world view in those whom we reach. You cannot create or sustain a sharp proletarian class consciousness on the basis of falsely negative accounts and condemnations of what in a “good” moment the bourgeoisie may do, any more than you can do it by letting the “good” moment, real or mere hope, blur your overall picture of what they are.
Suppose, for example, that Bush and Blair were to carry through their “project” in Iraq and create a high-level functioning bourgeois democracy there? Would that change our fundamental view of what they are and what, mainly, they and those they serve do in the world? Would it inhibit us from encouraging and helping Iraqi workers to use the new bourgeois-democratic openings to fight against Bush and Blair?
Not at all. At most it would imply an amendment to our view of them to explain why “in this period” they are doing this relatively good work — exporting and expanding bourgeois democracy. Would that blot out our overall picture of what they do in terms of expanding and increasing exploitation? No.
Would it imply that we extend them credit to do equally good work of expanding bourgeois democracy somewhere else? Not for us, it wouldn’t. The same bourgeois-democratic USA and Britain that — for their own reasons, as Germany’s rivals — brought down Hitler, simultaneously, and for three decades, sustained Franco, the fascist who had smashed Spanish bourgeois democracy and the Spanish labour movement with the support of Hitler and Mussolini.
What the experience of a Bush or Blair carrying through some large reform that we want, or anyway see as progressive and important — again, say, establishing bourgeois democracy in Iraq — what that would do to our thinking, of course, would be to introduce the idea that they might now behave similarly elsewhere. That would not incline us where we had the option of independent action to rely on them. It would not inhibit us from telling people in other countries to which their attention was directed neither to trust them nor to rely on them.
Deciding slogans for Iraq not from the realities, but in order to “anchor” our own resistance to the “gravitational pull” of Bush and Blair, would be wrong in principle and, in its own way, disorienting. Any attitude that pushes the immediate fate of the Iraqi labour movement to the margin of our concerns, or leads us to fatalistically accept that the labour movement must be sacrificed to something else, something higher — anti-imperialism, or “self-determination for Iraq” understood as Troops Out Now and damn the consequences — any such attitude is radically disoriented.
Purely negative and purely “Yankophobic” anti-imperialism plays a terrible role on the left.
Marxists tell the truth of situations. We face the practical implications of our slogans candidly and squarely. We are concerned at all times with the labour movement and the working class. We have to have very special and very good reasons indeed to even seriously consider accepting something else as higher in the scale of things and more important than the fate of the working class. “Anti-imperialism”, or vicarious “national liberation”, is not from our point of view, a self-sufficient ideology. The problem with much of the “left” is that for them, it is.
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Sean on Excellent Form
The arguments put forwqard by Sean are extremely well put. The issues raised go far beyond the immediate situation in Iraq, and many if not most of the points made provide valuable lessons.
I was almost convined that demanding troops out now is wrong.
But I remain unconvinced for a number of reasons. I'll give just three.
The first one is more to question an argument raised by Sean that I was surprised he made.
"The Iraqi labour activists will just have to be stoical, bear their fate bravely, and understand that though we reach the same conclusions as the reactionary “anti-imperialists” shouting for “Troops Out Now” and thereby succouring the Saddamists and clerical fascists, our motive is different — to put ourselves in the best position to resist the “gravitational pull” of imperialism.
Brutus and Cassius both stab Caesar, but for different motives. If Brutus explains to the dying man that he was motivated by higher goals than those of the jealous Cassius and his friends, Caesar will understand and die happy…
I suggest that there must be something radically wrong either with comrade Finger’s reasoning or else with the “principles” that lead to these conclusions.
Sean has made the point many times before that we do not determine our position by putting a plus sign where our enemies place a minus sign. Surely, Sean is not saying that Barry must be wrong because he puts a plus sign where our enemies - the reactionary anti-imperialists - also put a plus sign!!! That Barry's position could only be correct, whatever his analysis leads him to, if he arrives at a minus sign.
The second reason is that taking Sean's absolutely correct argument that the determining factor is what best advances the cause of the Iraqi labour movement in the concrete situation I am led to the conclusion that that movement should be calling for the withdrawal of foreign troops, or at least the withdrawal of troops of the invading and occupying powers. Various polls have shown that even in Southern Iraq, where it is thought support for the occupation is greatest, a sizeable majority of the population believe it is perfectly reasonable to attack the occupying forces. Under, those conditions if I place myself in the position of an Iraqi trade unionist, and consider whether my chances of gaining an audience amongst other Iraqi workers and attracting them to the Labour Movement are enhanced by taking up a position in opposition to an occupying army that daily attacks ordinary Iraqi workers, or of arguing that those same occupying forces were the saviours of Iraqi workers, I feel I would have no difficulty in arriving at a position of opposition to the occupation.
Thirdly, I absolutely agree that socialists can support imperialism if it is fighting a war against a more reactionary enemy, but the reality in Iraq is that it is not just the Islamists that the US and UK are fighting - far from it they are helping to train those forces to take over the police and military - it is the Iraqi people as a whole, as the new admission by the US that it used chemical weapons in the attack on Fallujah shows. Faced with an increasing death toll the US in particular has kept its troops off he streets as much as possible, and relies when it can on the more indiscriminate use of aerial or artillery bombardment unconcerned at civilian casualties. Even Johns Hopkins University body count puts the number of Iraqi civilians killed at well over 100,000.
Only if we consider virtually the entire Iraqi population as reactionary vis a vis imperialism would this argument stand.
The reality is that opposition to the war in the US with Clinton coming out against it, and Bush increasingly embattled even by his own Republican Party, looking to their fortunes in the upcoming mid term lections, with Colin Powell's Chief of Staff openly talking about the way a cabal organised the war etc., the US will be pulling out sooner rather than later.
If I were a trade unionist in Iraq I would consider my chances of survival after that pull-out far greater had I been an active opponent of the occupation, especially if I looked at the experience of the attitude to collaborators with occupation forces in every other conflict.
Arthur Bough
Barry v. Sean
I find, as a social democrat in Canada, Sean's rebuttal to be completely unconvincing, as well as your typically overly long piece. I think it ignores the domestic day to day political situation inside the United States after Hurricane Katrina and Hitchens' defense of Bush, where a troops out now slogan would have resonance, and which I am sure played some role in Barry's analysis as it should. As for the part about Alan Johnson (or Hitchens Mark Two), perhaps the AWL should be taken at its word but it is revealing that people like Prof. Norman Geras, a strong supporter of the war, reference this site favourably. I think the average unaffiliated reader cannot be blamed for having a certain amount of skepticism and the onus is on Sean to demonstrate the anti-war and anti-capitalist values of the AWL. This long rambling article simply does not convince just as the rants on this web site about Tony Cliff's grumpiness at meetings in 1971 similarly fail to convince.
Ravi Malhotra
Ottawa-Centre New Democratic Party (for ID purposes only)
The situation in the USA?
Ok, let's say Troops Out Now plays well in the USA. But, Ravi, you don't comment at all on what the slogan means in Iraq!
You don't dispute that the slogan means the destruction of the Iraqi labour movement. But you seem to say that's all right as long as it gives us a catchy bit of agitation in the USA.
To respond to Arthur: to refuse to say Troops Out Now is not at all to support the troops, or to want to persuade Iraqi workers that they should not oppose them..
We oppose all bourgeois governments. We do not always and in all situations raise the slogan "Bring the government down now!" We do not raise when the force most likely to bring down the government "now" is fascistic.
We build the labour movement, or do what we can to help building the labour movement, so that it can be an independent force against both the fascistic forces and the incumbent government.
What it means practically in Iraq is what Yanar Mohammed said to me in an interview a few months ago, explaining what she sees as the policy of the Worker-communist Party of Iraq.
We do not try to add strength to the campaign of the Sunni-supremacist "resistance", the force which might conceivably throw out the Americans and British "now". We oppose them fiercely.
We campaign against the US/UK occupation by denouncing it politically, mobilising against it, etc., while always also denouncing the Islamists and Ba'thists.
We work towards the US/UK being thrown out by a workers' movement - or by a democratic movement in which the working-class has some weight. And that, sadly but realistically, is not "now".
Martin Thomas
Iraq or USA centered considerations ?
I think the great merit of the AWL approach is the central concern for the ways in which the people of Iraq can progress and the emphasis you place on support for progressive forces on the ground.
I am sick and tired of being told that the most important issue is to give Bush and Blair a bloody nose....
Of course it might be that keeping one's thinking firmly rooted in the interests of the Iraqi people could lead one to decide that the key strategic issue is removing the role of the US administration. Does that imply immediate withdrawal as your central demand...I don't know, I would like to see more debate..
As to those who cite supporters of the war who approve of the AWL, that is a real red herring, the AWL bears no responsibility for that...although I would like to throw something into the ring...many people supported the war, for very 'good' reasons. They were wrong, but some of them were no doubt aware there were risks and there is no good in simply re-running the arguements on a we told you so basis. The issue for me is not whether Norman Geras and others who took a pro-war position were wrong about the war but are they progressive forces generally.
Does anyone really think opposition to the war is enough to turn the swp or George Galloway into progressive forces ? The swp are now well off the map, rapidly travelling in a deeply reactionary direction.However, their present positions are entirely consistent with their behaviour over many years. As Robin Blackburn said of the Labour Party at some point in the dim and distant past.... ' Let it bleed'.
I also think its time the left started to shake off the notion that it is always on principle wrong to support intervention, unless it is on some pure level. What lessons can we draw from Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia, Tanzania's invasion of Uganda for example. Life is never simple.
Rant about Tony Cliff's grumpiness in 1971?
"The rants on this web site about Tony Cliff's grumpiness at meetings in 1971..."? Where? I've just done a search, and the only reference I can find to Cliff at meetings in 1971 was his move in June that year to switch SWP/IS to a "keep Britain out of Europe" position from its old "In or out, the fight goes on". Cliff wasn't grumpy about that, as far as I recall. The issue was an important one, and is still important. The episode seems important to me, too, since Cliff's argument was not that he had discovered some merit in keeping Britain aloof, or some special horror in European capitalist integration, previously unseen, but simply that the "keep Britain out" line would enable SWP/IS to "vote with the left".
Maybe it's relevant to this Iraq debate, then. Should we decide our slogans on Iraq on what will make it easiest for us to chime in with the broad left around us in the USA and Britain, or on the realities of Iraq?
Martin Thomas
writing styles
The point about 1971 I thought was fairly obvious. It was meant in a metaphorical way, not in this literal sense although I am glad Martin T. managed to actually find some reference which only underscores my point. The fact is everything written by Sean everywhere is overly long and has this bizarre tone to it that discredits the AWL to normal people not trained in Third Camp discourse. The debate about the class nature of Afghanistan (to use 00 speak, dude who cares) is a prime example. The AWL may or may not be right (I think it's very obvious Barry is right and I remain unconvinced that most Iraqis do not want troops out now regardless of whether they are shia or sunni; moreover class politics in the US matters tremendously) on this question of slogans but how one debates matters. And Sean's tone in general is extremely off putting, self-indulgent and gratuitous (the long piece about Cliff's life that begins with a story about false headlines in a newspaper for instance). And therefore counter-productive.
Ravi
Example
I'd ask comrades to imagine themselves in the following scenario. The scene could be in Iraq now, or Britain under similar circumstances if that could be imagined.
At a workplace there are three people A,B and C. A is a trade union militant trying to organise workers in the plant. B is a religious fanatic, what might be described as a clerical-fascist, and supporter of a religious militia engaged in attacks on occupying forces. C is an ordinary worker trying to get on with their life, and considering joining the union because they recognise the daily problems any worker has to endure in the workplace.
One morning C arrives in a state of some distress. The night before her home has been the subject of attack. First an artillery shell landed just outside, destroying much of the building, debris and shrapnel badly injured one of her children, and killed the other. Shortly afterwards occupation soldiers rampaged into the house and dragged her husband away on the mistaken belief he had been shooting at them.
A tries to console her, and explains that much as he understands her grief and anger she should not forget who the real enemy are - the clerical fascist militias, who at some point in the future will destroy the labour movement he and his comrades are trying to build. Much as she might desire to kill the occupiers and drive them from her country, she should accept that they are fulfilling a useful function in controlling the religious fundamentalists.
B. sees his opportunity and offers his sympathy to C. He says, that now perhaps she will understand why he and his brothers have been telling her that the socialists are more concerned with their own agenda than with the immediate needs of the people. He says she is quite right in wanting the infidel forces to be killed and thrown out of the country, and if the militia can be built strong enough not only will they offer defence against attacks like the one she and her family suffered, but the will kick the occupiers out.
C. weighs up the arguments. Much as she is attracted to the need for a union to defend her interests as a worker, her first priority is to ensure that she is not the next person to be killed by a shell hitting her house, or to be dragged away in the middle of the night. She dislikes the idea of her rights as a worker and a woman being attacked by the religious doctrinaires, but that is something to deal with in the future. She agrees that the religious fundamentalists are a danger, but then the occupation forces themselves rather than fighting these forces are in fact in league with factions of them, helping them to form a government, training them as those very police forces and soldiers that in the future will be the ones who break the heads of the workers, and those fighting for human rights. The occupation forces are an enemy on two fronts.
If only the socialists and trade unionists would organise militias and fight for the removal of theoccupation forces now she considers her dilemma would be over. But as they do not she decides to deal with her immediate problem and signs up to help the religious militia putting off the fight against them until the future.
A is dissapointed but consoles himself with the thought he has done the right thing and that there are other workers. The problem is that many ordinary workers don't see things as he does, and C's experience is not isolated. More and more of them ignore the trade unions and the socialists as irrelevant to their immediate problem.
The words of the song reverberate in their head - "You'll get pie in the sky when you die."
Sean's argument is really an extension of Lenin's naive cocnept of revolutionary defeatism - in this instance the main enemy at home is the religious militias. The concept is confused and confusing. Lenin could not even get the Bolsheviks to implement it, and no workers in history have acted in accordance with it. That in itself for historical materialists should tell us something.
I discussed it here.
Revolutionary Defeatism and Anti-Imperialism
One other thing I am confused with is this. The AWL's predecessor Socialist Organiser argued quite rightly for the immediate withdrawal of Soviet forces from Afghanistan. That demand was absolutely correct because although the Comintern's Theses on the National and Colonial Question called for a war against Pan-Islamism I don't think they meant an invasion of other countries and a war literally fought with tanks, but an ideological war at most given one of Lenin's nudges. But on the level of the discussion of Iraq the USSR were actually engaged also in an ideological war against Islam in Afghanistan, did establish schools and extend women's rights etc.
Whilst the US and UK say they want those things in Iraq the fact is that they have not insisted on them. Unlike the establsihment of liberal democratic secular governments set up in Germany and Japan after the second world war they have left the Islamic dominated Governing Council to establish its own constitution, and train the forces of these Islamic parties to become the new state apparatus.
If it was right to call for the immediate withdrawal of Soviet imperialism from Afghanistan which was in albeit typical bureaucratic fashion waging a war against reactionary Islam, why is it not right to call fort he immediate withdrawal of US forces from Iraq when those forces are in fact far from waging a war against it, but in cahoots with sections of it.
Arthur Bough
Troops out now?
Surely there are three things which mark Iraq out as distinct from Afghanistan, and to see it in terms of an imperialist power vs Islamists is too simplistic.
1. There is a labour movement in Iraq. Whatever the programmatic niceties, the existence of this movement is the single most important fact, not only in Iraq but throughout the region. It is the first significant independent workers' movement in the Arab east for forty years. If the consequence of the application of our programme is likely to be the destruction of this movement, our programme must be wrong. At the very least, our priority should be the interests of this movement, not the purity of our programme.
2. The US occupation of Iraq is brutal, but simply not on the same scale as the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan - which caused millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands, or more, of deaths, and really was, clearly, a war between Moscow and the vast majority of at least the rural population of Afghanistan.
3. - which is connected to the first two: for all its innumerable defects, there is the beginnings of a bourgeois democracy now in Iraq. This was not so in Afghanistan, and inconceivable as a consequence of USSR occupation. It is, of course, the condition for the emergence of the labour movement. It is not a matter of heaping praise on the US, or whatever, but of recognising the facts.
It follows from these considerations, I think, that we should be very careful with slogans which sound radical but imply, in fact, reactionary results.
Imperialism - The Highest Promoter of Democracy.
“Surely there are three things which mark Iraq out as distinct from Afghanistan, and to see it in terms of an imperialist power vs Islamists is too simplistic.”
I agree. I only dealt with that aspect because it was one of the bases on which Sean justified not demanding the immediate withdrawal of troops i.e. imperialism can be progressive if it is fighting against pre-capitalist forces such as clerical fascism. I merely pointed out that on that score the USSR actually was fighting clerical fascists in Afghanistan, was promoting, women’s rights, establishing schools etc., whereas in Iraq the US is training the clerical fascists to take over the state, subletting the internement and torture of Sunni Arabs to them, whilst playing off one group against another in order to establsih the kind of conditions which best enable it to promote those elements most conducive to its interests. Sean’s argument on this count, therefore, I do not think stands up. The greatest victims of the occupation are not the Iraqi clerical fascists, but Iraqi civians that basically are treated as collateral damage, and the clerical fighters in that part of the “resistance” made up of foreign fighters whose interests and objectives are at odds with the interests of all the various factions contained within the ranks of the Shia clerical fascists.
”1. There is a labour movement in Iraq. Whatever the programmatic niceties, the existence of this movement is the single most important fact, not only in Iraq but throughout the region. It is the first significant independent workers' movement in the Arab east for forty years. If the consequence of the application of our programme is likely to be the destruction of this movement, our programme must be wrong. At the very least, our priority should be the interests of this movement, not the purity of our programme.”
I agree completely, but I would argue that all experience shows that a Labour Movement that does not deal with the immediate political issues facing the working class such as an armed occupation of its country dooms itself to insignificance. The way for that movement to grow both in size, and political maturity is to put itself at the head of the movement to throw out the occupation. The Iraqi Labour Movement is in the main calling for the immediate withdrawal of troops and we should support that demand.
”2. The US occupation of Iraq is brutal, but simply not on the same scale as the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan - which caused millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands, or more, of deaths, and really was, clearly, a war between Moscow and the vast majority of at least the rural population of Afghanistan.”
At what point does a qualitative difference exist? If the number of casualties in Iraq rises to 200,000, half a million, a million. Will it only then become reactionary?
”3. - which is connected to the first two: for all its innumerable defects, there is the beginnings of a bourgeois democracy now in Iraq. This was not so in Afghanistan, and inconceivable as a consequence of USSR occupation. It is, of course, the condition for the emergence of the labour movement. It is not a matter of heaping praise on the US, or whatever, but of recognising the facts.”
Quite right, the Soviet Union did not create a bourgeois democracy in Afghanistan. Nor could it have done even if it wanted to, because Afghanistan is a pre-capitalist society. The US and EU have not created a bourgeois democracy in Afghanistan either for the same reason. They have created a militarised enclave around Kabul, and they have been able to conduct pretty meaningless elections, but the vast majority of the country remains under the real control of warlords.
Let us assume that the US and UK occupation of Iraq was actually motivated by the best of intentions. Let us assume that imperialism set out to improve the lives of Iraqis rather than set out to further its own interests, and to establish a political regime in Iraq which is best suited to that end. What conclusions can we draw from that.
Consider a similar situation. Nazi Germany smashed the Labour movement and destroyed boyrgeois democracy. A condition of the development of the German Labour Movement according to your argument, therefore, was the re-establishment of bourgeois democracy. That was the proclaimed aim of the Allies. To use your argument, socialists then whilst not actually calling on the Allies to invade Germany, should, quietly behind their hands, secretly hoped they would in order that bourgeois democracy would be restored. Whilst not actually being honest enough to follow through the logic of their argument that bourgeois democratic capitalism was a lesser evil than fascist capitalism and call for the support of the Allies they would refrain from demanding an immediate end to the war.
“It follows from these considerations, I think, that we should be very careful with slogans which sound radical but imply, in fact, reactionary results.”
I agree, and we should also be wary of framing our demands coloured by our own defeatism and pessimism for the labour movement flowing from our current weakness, demands which end up telling workers to depend not on their own strength, but on the good grace of one section of their class enemies.
Arthur Bough
No apologies for occupation
Arthur in his second comment 'Example', I believe, misrepresents our position. Our position is certainly not the 'A' character who in the face of the arbitrary and continual brutalities of the occupation forces gives a lecture on the need 'not to forget who the real enemy is', the Islamist militias. We gave no such de facto apologies for Abu Ghraib, Falluja, nor would we any other minor atrocity, hypothetical or not. We do not take sides with, defend or support the imperialist power. Never!
Barry doesn't accuse us of that in any case. But he does fall prey to the argument that we need to take sides, the 'anti-imperialist' side, although not explicitly. He uses 'gravitational pull' to describe the dangers of appearing to be associated with imperialism by wanting the Iraqi labour movement to make, as he puts it, 'a social and political gain from the crime of imperialism'.
I find Barry's use of the singular 'crime' a bit strange here.
There are many crimes of imperialism in Iraq, their brutal techniques of war, their use of torture, their acceptance of sectarian Islamist forces running most of Iraq. There will be further crimes I am sure, when the US calculate their withdrawal timetable. I have no doubt they will withdraw in a way that does maximum damage to any movement we would wish to see built. That is a movement that would create a society and, more worryingly from the US point of view, an economy that is genuinely under the democratic control of the Iraqi people.
That is why we can never defend imperialism, or ever support it.
But imperialism's crime, or crimes, go along with actions that can be exploited by Iraqi workers. Postures like claiming to support democratic secular rights, trade union rights etc. We know these are hypocritical statements, and at best half-hearted actions, on the US's part but are these not 'gains' for Iraqi workers. Should we not want this 'gain' of organising politically, should we reject it even, because it comes as part of Barry's 'crime of imperialism'.
Barry's phrase 'gravitational pull' is intended I think to be a cautionary remarks about a possible evolution of the AWL. I think he is wrong, we were saying very similar things about Ireland for a decade and more, with people around us denouncing us as pro-imperialist. In the end though, it is the 'Troops Out Now', pro-Sinn Fein left who ended up disoriented and without working clas bearings. Not us.
Barry's warnings may be valid for some. People who like to play games of diplomacy, or pretend to be the 'inspector generals of history', bringing an imperialist army here, approving a treaty there, acting as the advisor for this or that bourgeois politician; such people do exist and are in danger, if they aren't there already, of being no more than impotent satellites around a far weightier imperialist force. These people, such as much of the journalistic pro-war left and our, and Barry's, former comrade Alan Johnson, who look to imperialist governments both those of Blair AND Bush, to be reliable agents of democratic transformation.
If the US and UK do plan an early withdrawal, even if it causes more chaos and terror for our people, the Iraqi working people, we won't say 'please stay longer'. We will say that their action fits entirely with their central objectives, to which any democratic gains for Iraqis were only incidental. We will say even more urgently 'give aid to secular Iraqi worker organisations' as the only force that can save Iraq from disaster. And we will direct that appeal not to imperialist governments but to the international working class movement.
The dangers of the 'gravitational pull' comes from forgetting that the only genuine agency of democratic change can be the working class movement.
The Error was Oversimplification
I think I agree, Pete, that I was probably unfair to the AWL's position. I was not trying to misrepresent the position, the error was oversimplification in trying to make a point. In fact, I could have given the same example, but with the woman worker's house being destroyed by a Sunni militia attack, rather than a US military attack. All, however, that that would prove is that there are more than one set of reactionary forces at work in the country, competing centres of power, and that workers in one particular area will look to militia within their own area for defence against attacks from elsewhere - in fact, much as Catholic workers looked to the Provos for defence against attacks by Protestant militias in the absence of a clear independent working class alternative defence.
Of course, in ireland, where the British Army did at first provide some defence for Catholic communities, they too were seen as saviours, but that situation soon changed. In Ireland, the British troops have remained for a very long time, but it did not provide a breathing space for the labour movement to develop as an alternative to the Provos or the Protestant paramilitaries, and in Ireland the Labour Movement began from a much better position than in Iraq. On the contrary, the continued presence of British troops and the failure of the Labour Movement to deal with that, in an attempt to pretend they could continue business as usual, was precisely the reason the provos and protestant paramilitaries grew, because they were seen as providing the answers to the immediate problems of workers. Workers in Iraq cannot demand the immediate withdrawal of the Islamic militia because they are Iraqis - any more than Catholic workers could call for the withdrawal of Protoestant paramilitary organisation - they can only build their own militia and defence forces in opposition to them. They can of course, demand the withdrawal of foreign Islamic fighters, and I would raise that as a demand alongside the demand for the immediate withdrawal of occupation troops. I would also raise the demand for the support of workers militia from other countries to defend workers communities against both the occupation and the Islamists, along the lines of the International Brigade in Spain.
Having made all those provisos, however, the example was intended to be a simplification to draw out a simple dynamic. Yes, I accept that the AWL criticises the occupation forces for all of the bad things they do, that they opposed the invasion and oppose the occupation in words, and in deeds through trying to build the Iraqi Labour Movement, which, if successful, would be the best means by which the occupation could be removed, but let us take this into consideration and change the words then that A gives in consolation to C.
"Yes I grieve with you for your loss, I condemn the occupation forces for their actions in the greatest possible terms, I will publicise your case for you and assist you in any way possible to make clear the reactionary nature of the occupation."
But then when C asks, "And will you help me to seek the immediate withdrawal of those forces so that no other workers suffer as I have done, will you help establish a militia to fight against those forces and drive them out of our country, and to defend our communities against them, here and now?"
A is forced to declare, "No, I declare my opposition to the occupation, I am prepared to put into words my condemnation of it, but in my heart of hearts I want them to stay because I see the Islamists as a bigger danger."
In reality A's position becomes worse were I C because what they have basically admitted is that they are dishonest, they proclaim one thing, but hope for another. As I put it in the post I linked to they are like the person who proclaims their belief that superstition is bunk, but checks their horoscope every day.
Of course, the reality is that most of the unions in Iraq do call for Troops Out Now even though what each of them mean by that is different.
Perhaps, A's response should be something like. "I sympathise with your loss, and grieve with you. The occupation is thoroughly reactionary and must be removed as soon as possible. We as workers must organise and demand its immediate withdrawal, and we must organise our own workers militia and defence squads to protect us both from the occupation forces, and from the militia of the Islamists of all factions who are as much our enemies as the occupation forces. We cannot rely on the occupation forces to protect us from the Islamic militia nor on the Islamic militia to protect us from the occupation forces, we can only rely on ourselves, but in order to be able to be strong enough to defend ouselves against the Islamists, and to throw out the occupation we must proclaim ourselves the most committed fighters for the immediate removal of the occupation. We are not strong enough to achieve that now, but the more people like you that join us the stronger we become, the better able will we be to not only throw out the occupation, but to protect our interests as workers.
Join us in that fight for the immediate removal of the occupation, and avenge your loss. Join us in building our Labour Movement for the advancement of our rights as workers, and human beings against those that would roll them back in the camp of Islamic reaction, and of imperialism."
Arthur Bough
"Out Now" is a necessity
I still agree with Barry Finger against the AWL position. There are strong and growing indications that the majority of Iraqis oppose the U.S. presence and that continuing the occupation will lead to the _strengthening_ of reactionary forces. Only an end to the occupation can undermine support for the violent insurgency and create the political space that could allow Iraqi democratic, secularist and trade union movements—-the ones the AWL and Barry and I support--to grow. Calling for immediate withdrawal is also the only realistic lever the peace movement has in moving the Bush regime to even accept a phased withdrawal under international auspices, which those leery of a quick exit say they prefer.
U.S. Labor Against the War manages to both support Iraqi unions and demand "Out Now." Why is it so hard for the AWL to do the same? To the extent that Iraqi unions don't support "Out Now," they are, I think, in error, in thinking they can buy time to build industrial democracy on the point of an American bayonet.
Worth a read
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=9162
Why is 'Out Now' a necessity?
I accept everything that USRed says in this comment except
Calling for immediate withdrawal is also the only realistic lever the peace movement has in moving the Bush regime to even accept a phased withdrawal under international auspices, which those leery of a quick exit say they prefer.
and
U.S. Labor Against the War manages to both support Iraqi unions and demand "Out Now." Why can't the AWL?
Our slogans aren't reformist bargaining tools, 'we want £6, so we'll demand £8 an hour'; 'we want eventual withdrawal, so we'll demand immediate withdrawal'.
Nor is it a credible argument to say 'Most working class opponents of the occupation are prepared to say 'Out Now', so why don't we go along with it.'
Our demands are there to organise, to put forward objectives that working class people will see express their interests and mobilise for them.
OK, sometimes people will mobilise behind not very good slogans and I would have less problems with 'Troops Out Now' if there weren't so many idiotic apologists for Islamist sectarian chaos who used that slogan. (Maybe in the US it is different.) And I would be less bothered by this issue if it wasn't easier for supporters of the occupation to justify their stance by saying 'well these people who call for 'troops out now' don't criticise Islamist reaction and sectarian terror and are prepared to hand Iraq over to these forces'.
The rest of your contribution is saying that Iraqis are opposed to the occupation, see it as contributing to the growth of Islamism, want to oppose it etc. etc. We agree! No-one in the AWL is saying that we want to ask for the occupation to continue, we want to end it, but by a force that will liberate workers and not one that will imprison them under a more terrible regime.
Is There Some Movement Here?
"Our slogans aren't reformist bargaining tools, 'we want £6, so we'll demand £8 an hour'; 'we want eventual withdrawal, so we'll demand immediate withdrawal'."
I agree.
"Nor is it a credible argument to say 'Most working class opponents of the occupation are prepared to say 'Out Now', so why don't we go along with it.'"
I agree.
"Our demands are there to organise, to put forward objectives that working class people will see express their interests and mobilise for them."
I agree, they should, but the main demand of Iraqi workers is the immediate withdrawal of the occupation. How can you claim to put forward demands aimed to mobilise them when you do not put forward that fundamental demand for mobuilising the Iraqi working class to meet its immediate needs. The Iraqi workers call for the immediate withdrawal of the occupation, and we should support them. Refusal to do so seems to be putting a minus sign where the SWP puts a plus sign.
"I would have less problems with 'Troops Out Now' if there weren't so many idiotic apologists for Islamist sectarian chaos who used that slogan. (Maybe in the US it is different.) And I would be less bothered by this issue if it wasn't easier for supporters of the occupation to justify their stance by saying 'well these people who call for 'troops out now' don't criticise Islamist reaction and sectarian terror and are prepared to hand Iraq over to these forces'"
Why should our position and slogans be dictated to us by what other people say. We don't put a plus where they put a minus just to be different. Let them do their analysis and come to their conclusions, set out their slogans, and we will do the same. Our slogans and position should flow from what is in the interests of the Iraqi workers not what distinguishes us from the slogans of other groups and organisations in Britain or elsewhere.
It is necessary to emphasise not only the opposition to the occupation but also the opposition to Islamic reaction. For example, we should raise the demand for the removal of all foreign fighters not just the withdrawal of the occupation. We should call for Iran to keep its nose out of Iraq. We should call on a truly independent working class movement of internatrional solidarity to come to the aid of the Iraqi working class to assist in its development and protection against attacks from Islam, and from imperialism.
Arthur Bough
Clarification
You say: 'Why should our position and slogans be dictated to us by what other people say' in response to my 'supporters of the occupation ...justify their stance by saying 'well these people who call for 'troops out now' don't criticise Islamist reaction and sectarian terror and are prepared to hand Iraq over to these forces'
Well when those who argue in favour of the occupation tell the truth (on that issue), it would be crazy to ignore it. Our slogans aren't everything, but they should try to effectively communicate our analysis and not the irresponsible, toytown 'anti-imperialism' of so much that claims to be the anti-war left.
Communication
I was more focussed on the first part of the quote where you say,
"I would have less problems with 'Troops Out Now' if there weren't so many idiotic apologists for Islamist sectarian chaos who used that slogan."
And where you seem to be saying fairly openly that perhaps you would have no objection to using "Troops Out Now" as a slogan were it not for the fact that the SWP were using it. In what way then is the determination of slogans determined by what meets the immediate needs of the Iraqi working class rather than the need to have clear water between the AWL and SWP here in Britain.
I agree that it is necessary to make clear that in raising the demand "Troops Out Now" it is necessary to distinguish yourself from the SWP and others that simply mean support Islamic reaction. But is there anyone out there that reads the AWL's material who does not already have a pretty clear picture that the AWL disagrees with the SWP, that the AWL is even more hostile to clerical fascism than it is to imperialism, and that consequently when it raises the demand for Troops Out Now it certainly does not mean support for Islamic reaction, does not mean handing over the government to them, but is a rallying cry for the working class to mobilise its forces to bring that about, and a precondition for the working class being succesful in achieving that goal is that it becomes a much stronger force than it is now. If anyone out there does not realise that then they must have been very very selective in which bits of your material they have read.
Moreover, in order to make the position clearer, and in any case as demands I believe should be raised if I were an Iraqi Trade Unionist or socialist I would be raising demands not just for the immediate withdrawal of US and UK troops, but the immediate withdrawal of foreign fighters such as Al Zaqarwi, demanding that Iran keep its hands of Iraq, and would be demanding that the Labour Movement internationally organise not just economic, poltical and moral support but physical support too as part of the task of rebuilding an independent working class movement internationally capable of defending itself rather than relying on imperialism or other hostile forces to fight its battles.
Arthur Bough
Slogans are to introduce as well as summarise our ideas
..is there anyone out there that reads the AWL's material who does not already have a pretty clear picture that the AWL disagrees with the SWP, that the AWL is even more hostile to clerical fascism than it is to imperialism'?
Probably not. If people, saw 'Troops Out Now' above one of our articles though, they might scratch their head, as I would, because it doesn't really match the rest of the analysis or programme we advocate.
But headlines in papers and slogans on marches are intended primarily for those who won't immediately read the content, who might presume that 'Troops Out Now' means as others mean it, and is in my view implicit in it. 'Victory to the Resistance'.
Our opposition to imperialism and Islamic reaction are better communicated without the 'out Now' slogan.
Going to have duck out of this debate for a couple of days. I hope other AWL supporters will have the opportunity of taking up these issues for a while.
Cheers
Pete
Does it Matter?
"But headlines in papers and slogans on marches are intended primarily for those who won't immediately read the content, who might presume that 'Troops Out Now' means as others mean it, and is in my view implicit in it. 'Victory to the Resistance'."
I am prompted to wonder who the people are that you think pick up a copy of Solidarity or any other left-wing paper and only read the headlines. Have Sun readers sudenly en masse changed their affiliation?
But in any case does what you say matter on two counts. First of all we are discussing what demands are relevant to building the Labour Movement in Iraq not what some passer by on a demonstration in the US or Britain might think. Secondly, if this person that simply observes the slogans on the march is going to become involved in actually doing anything - and if they aren't then what impression they get doesn't really matter - then won't they actually in the process go beyond the mere slogans and think about what each organisation means by them.
Finally, it was not beyond the wit of man to produce slogans which summed up opposition to both the invasion and to Saddam to be used on placards. Is it not within the realms of possibility to combine the slogan for Troops Out Now with slogans for the defeat of the Islamic militias, for the Removal of Foreign Fighters, and For Defence of Workers and Women's Rights?
Arthur Bough
Where and how is this demand to be Used and by whom
Who are we talking about in relation to the demand for Troops Out Now, where and how is it to be raised?
If we are talking about a demand we think socialists in Iraq should use, then already they are doing so, and as Martin sets out above in his comments relating to the interview with Yanar Mohammed of the WPI the way they are raising it is the way I have discussed it i.e. it is not something they pretend the workers movement can achieve here and now, but a demand which reflects the aspirations of Iraqi workers, a necessary slogan around which to build the mobilisation of the Iraqi workers, that prevents that territory be left clear for the Islamists to hijack for themselves. I doubt whteher any workers in Iraq coming into contact with a demand for Troops Out Now would have any illusion that those in the Iraqi Labour Movement raising this demand were in reality calling for support for the Islamic fighters or parties of any description, and any that were would soon be disabused of that misconception once they looked at everything else those militants were saying and doing.
If we are talking about this demand being raised in the British Labour Movement, the question arises where and how this demand would be raised. I doubt that any AWL supporter is going to put a resolution to their Trade Union or other labour Movement organisation demanding Troops Out Now, and when they come to move it simply stand up shout "Troops Out Now" and then sit down again. They will explain exactly what they mean i.e. along the same lines as it is being used in Iraq. That what we mean is that although we recognise that the Labour Movement in Iraq is not strong enough to bring an end to the occupation now the demand represents our commitment to build a Labour Movement that is strong enough to achieve that, as quickly as possible. That the Labour Movement here has a responsibility to assist them in that development, and to provide whatever help it can including if possible defence against attacks either from the occupation forces or the Islamists. BUt in putting forward this resolution in this manner it is made clear that the question of defence against those attacks from Islamists is one which is for workers internationally to take responsibility for in all available forms, not one which we subcontract to imperialism. The demand neither here nor in Iraq is a plea to Imperialism to heed our wishes - that would indeed be futile - but a demand in both instances around which to mobilise workers both here and in Iraq, a call for workers internationally to make solidarity and independent working class action a reality by coming to the defence of their comrades in Iraq. Not a demand to stand on its own, not a replacement for action on the day to day workplace and economic issues that affect workers in Iraq, but a necessary demand to reflect the aspirations of Iraqi workers to have their country back as a fundamental requirement for advancing their cause.
Arthur Bough
It is, indeed, different in the U.S.
The majority of people in the U.S. demanding "Out Now" have no sympathy for the Baathist/political Islamist resistance. It's only groups like the Cliffite ISO and the neo-Stalinist Workers World Party that do that.
The problem is rhetoric
Arthur says
C asks, "And will you help me to seek the immediate withdrawal of those forces so that no other workers suffer as I have done, will you help establish a militia to fight against those forces and drive them out of our country, and to defend our communities against them, here and now?"
A is forced to declare, "No, I declare my opposition to the occupation, I am prepared to put into words my condemnation of it, but in my heart of hearts I want them to stay because I see the Islamists as a bigger danger."
NO! We shouldn't say that, we don't want the troops to stay! We want popular democratic non-sectarian working class forces to defend their communities, but probably as least as much from the actions of sectarian Islamist militias as the occupying forces. Few Iraqis either in your hypothetical situation or in reality are unconcerned by that. In reply to the hypothetical request for immediate withdrawal, I think we should say 'troops should be withdrawn as soon as we can make them, not in a way that will surrender our communities to the rule of Islamist terror. We cannot get the troops out and defned our communities without building our own democratic militias.'
You are closer with:
A's response should be something like. "I sympathise with your loss, and grieve with you. The occupation is thoroughly reactionary and must be removed as soon as possible. etc.
Totally agree!
But elsewhere you say about that Iraqis should 'demand the immediate withdrawal' and 'throw out' the occupation whilst they should 'defend (them)selves against the Islamists'. But the Islamists are not a bunch of misbehaving teenagers on some council estate, they are contenders for state power, or at least power in dismembered bits of the Iraqi state.
Whenever, and however, democratic secular forces based on the working class can organise some degree of control over parts of Iraq they should do that - against occupation forces and sectarian militias.
'Troops out now' is as inaccurate a reflection of that viewpoint as 'defeat Islamism tomorrow'. Both are rhetoric.
But Often Rhetoric is Fundamental to Organisation.
I agree, Pete, calling for Troops Out Now is pure rhetoric considering the ability of the Iraqi Labour Movement to achieve it at this exact moment. Absolutley, 100% spot on. Just as when my children were still crawling and I encouraged them to try to stand up and walk I told them they could do it knowing full well they might fall down before they got to the second step. That was rhetoric too. Its called optimism and encouragement, the opposite of pessimism and defeatism.
The provos as an insignificant force in Northern Ireland had absolutely no chance of throwing out the might of the British Army, yet they made the demand for that woithdrawal central to their slogans. In so doing and organising the working class Catholic Communities to that end, and to defend themselves against attacks by protestant militias they grew rapidly. Indeed, despite the existence of a large organised Labour Movement which by and large ignored the question of the occupation they grew from insignifiance to dominance. That is the reverse of the situation in Iraq now
We can learn thatlesson or ignore it.
Arthur Bough
Rhetoric Through History
When Spartacus decided to throw off his chains and set his face against the Roman Empire the idea of slavery was taken for granted. Even the slaves saw it as a natural order of things. When he called on them to join him in overthrowing the Empire he had not a hope in hell of achieving that goal as an individual. The call was pure rhetoric. But through that rhetoric, by setting a goal which not only met the needs of the slaves as opposed to simply asking for more food or better conditions, he managed to mobilise the slaves into a magnificent army that could win their freedom.
At least that's how Kirk Douglas played it.
When Karl Marx at the end of the Communist manifesto raised the demand "Workers of the World Unite" he had not a hope in hell of realising that demand any time soon. It was pure rhetoric. But it was the kind of rhetoric that helped mobilise workers into exactly the kind of struggle Marx had called them to.
He could have called on them to improve their conditions, but not so much as it threatened a return of the old feudal rulers, but Marx managed to deal with that threat too.
When in April 1917 Lenin called for "All Power to the Soviets" even his own Party thought he had gone mad, the Bolsheviks were an insignificant force. The bourgeois revolution was threatened by reaction in the form of the old Tsarist generals and other fascistic elements like the Black Hundreds, all of which were far more powerful than the tiny Bolshevik organisation.
Lenin's slogan was pure rhetoric.
But it was the kind of rhetoric that turned things round, which transformed the Bolsheviks from being an insignifant organisation, to being the leaders of the revolution.
Given a choice between pessimism and defeatism, or rhetoric as a means of mobilising the working class I'll take rhetoric every time.
Arthur Bough
Iraq labour movement and the demand for "troops out now"
I think what some people are leaving out of this discussion is the present. The reality for the working class in Iraq today, Tuesday November 22 2005, is that the political Islamists and Baathist remnants are their main enemy. We all know that at least 100,000 people have been killed in Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam. The overwhelming majority have been killed by political Islamists and Baathists. Not by US forces. Women seen outside their homes without a male escort are attacked and raped by political Islamists. Students at Basra university on a picnic playing western music on a CD player were bashed by political Islamists. Hairdressers who shave men's beards and give western style haircuts are murdered by political islamists.
A number of trade union officials have been kidnapped and murdered by political Islamists. Political Islamists and Baathists blow up markets. They blow up people queeing for jobs.
How can you possibly ask the workers' movement to go into coalition with people who are murdering members of your class by the hundred today and who will murder members of your class by the THOUSAND the moment they gain control of Iraqi society? This is no wild exaggeration.
It happened right next door... in Iran...in '79-'80-'81. It happened in Indonesia in '65 not long after after a coalition between the Indonesian Communist Party and bourgeois nationalists defeated Dutch colonialism. In Indonesia the clerical facists aided by the CIA whipped young fundamentalist Muslims and Christians into a frenzy that led to the slaughter of over 600,000 people in a few months. Members of the Indonesian Communist Party sat in their homes waiting for instructions which did not come from a leadership politically disarmed because only days before they were having drinks and dinner with people they thought were allies.
The other major point I would like to make is this.. those who are passionate defenders of the so-called "resistance" give only nominal support to the Iraqi workers' movement. Ask yourself this... have you raised a single dollar for an Iraqi union or left wing party? Have you tried to convince a single trade unionist you know to call for an Iraq tour by his/her union leaders? Or to get his/her union to help pay for an Iraqi leftist to tour your country? If your answer is no (in my case it is yes) you can't say you're in solidarity with Iraqi labour.
The unions and left wing parties in Iraq need money. And (unlike Al Queda and Al Sadr) they won't get it from governments. Without the material and political support of unionists and socialists in countries like ours, the only civilising force in Iraqi society... the workers' movement... cannot grow. And if the workers' movement does not grow it won't be able to take on and defeat both poles of terrorism: the occupiers and the clerical facists/Baathist remnants.
Lynn Smith
Sydney Australia
Who On this board has made that demand?
"How can you possibly ask the workers' movement to go into coalition with people who are murdering members of your class by the hundred today and who will murder members of your class by the THOUSAND the moment they gain control of Iraqi society? This is no wild exaggeration."
Who on this board has made such a call? All of the above discussion above is by people who are completely opposed to the so called resistance. Not one single comment above from anyone on either side of the debate about Troops Out Now even comes close to suggesting that workers should co-oerate with the Resistance. On the contrary, we have made precisely the opposite case.
If we are going to have a debate let's at least debate what people are saying rather than put up straw men.
Arthur Bough
Rhetoric revisited
Maybe rhetoric was the wrong word, given its numerous meaning. My use of it was as 'sounding good but essentially empty of meaning'. And I'm sure Lenin, Marx and Arthur would be against that.
'Workers of the World Unite', 'All Power to the Soviets' were never particularly 'Now' slogans and as Sean refers to in his article Lenin stopped the Bolsheviks encouraging the Soviets to take power and bring down the provisional governmentin July 1917 (i.e. implementing 'All power to the Soviets NOW' because St. Petersburg would have been isolated from the rest of Russia). That didn't make Lenin a supporter of Kerensky, it did make him a serious revolutionary who didn't issue slogans light-mindedly.
As we wrote in the Solidarity editorial of Sept 25th 'The problem in general with precise advice or demands to established governments by people who do not possess state power or influence - of the 'out now' sort - is that in every situation it inescapably implies a view about the alternative. It implies either pointed, precise, positive support for the given alternative - and of course sometimes we do support that alternative, for example when it means an occupying army ceding to a genuine national liberation movement - or indifference to it.'
No-one has successfully put the case here that Iraqi workers or even a democratic anti-imperialist movement could take power immediately. We should organise to give support to people who aim to do that as soon as they can.
The July days in Russia led to Trotsky being put in prison and Lenin in hiding, and they had done everything they could to make sure that the Bolsheviks had not been seen as premature insurrectionists.
Attempting to couple the new workers movement in Iraq to slogans that would imply support to either one or another Islamist militia, would lead to their isolation within one sectarian identity or another and quite possibly their total and complete eventual physical elimination.
But The Slogan Is Being Used in Iraq
"The problem in general with precise advice or demands to established governments"
I agree entirely with this sentiment, and I would agree that if this demand were to be used in this context then it would indeed fall into the category of rhetoric or hot air that you describe above, Pete.
But I don't think that either me or the reactionary anti-imperialists are using it in that sense. For the latter, they use it as meaning "Victory to the Resistance" and a call to organise to support that insurgency.
I think I have made clear that I have nothing but complete opposition to that position. But I am not using it as a piece of wishful thinking or a cry in the dark to imperialism either. On the contrary I am using it in the same context that most of the Labour Movement in Iraq seems to be using it i.e. as a means to recruit forces to, and mobilise the working class to a level of strength where it is capable both of seriously demanding the removal of the occupation and of defending itself against Islamic reaction. The Now bit simply makes clear firstly, the intention of urgency in that mobilisation, and secondly, makes clear that no reliance is placed upon the occupation forces to defend Iraqi workers, no credibility is given to those forces whatsoever.
"Attempting to couple the new workers movement in Iraq to slogans that would imply support to either one or another Islamist militia, would lead to their isolation within one sectarian identity or another and quite possibly their total and complete eventual physical elimination."
But the reality is that the Labour Movement in Iraq does use this slogan without the problem you put forward.
As Martin commented above,
"What it means practically in Iraq is what Yanar Mohammed said to me in an interview a few months ago, explaining what she sees as the policy of the Worker-communist Party of Iraq.
We do not try to add strength to the campaign of the Sunni-supremacist "resistance", the force which might conceivably throw out the Americans and British "now". We oppose them fiercely.
We campaign against the US/UK occupation by denouncing it politically, mobilising against it, etc., while always also denouncing the Islamists and Ba'thists.
We work towards the US/UK being thrown out by a workers' movement - or by a democratic movement in which the working-class has some weight. And that, sadly but realistically, is not "now"."
I agree, but if the WPI can use the Out Now demand in Iraq, and make clear what they mean by it, use it to ensure they cannot be labelled as supporters of the occupation by the Islamists, and use it to mobilise the forces of the working class, hopefully to the point where they can make it a reality, then why is it such a problem to use this demand here in the UK, and to explain what it means. Unfortunately, I get the impression that the real reason is that you give above - the SWP and their hangers on use it.
Arthur Bough
All Power To the Soviets and Troops Out Now
"Sean refers to in his article Lenin stopped the Bolsheviks encouraging the Soviets to take power and bring down the provisional governmentin July 1917 (i.e. implementing 'All power to the Soviets NOW' because St. Petersburg would have been isolated from the rest of Russia)."
Why had Lenin raised the slogan "All Power to the Soviets" in the first place? The reason is quite simple. Lenin knew that throughout history, during a revolutionary situation and in fact not just revolutionary situations, but any significant mass action, those raised to the head of the movement are those with the most radical solutions. Once the mass has moved it essentially says, "WE have risked everything, now we want everything." And those that limit their demands to something less, get swept aside. The only other condition for the success of this strategy is that the organisation attempting to place itself at the head of this movement must be well organised and disciplined. That was precisely the kind of organisation Lenin sought to build, a new version of the the New Model Army.
A look at the English Civil War demonstrates the point. After the Parliamentarians had essentially defeated the Royalists the mass wanted to go further. Although, the rebellion was led by the lower often dispossessed nobility, the nascent bourgeoisie, and the tenant/capitalist farmers like Cromwell himself, the Parliamentarians relied for their cannon fodder necessarily on the peasants. The rebellion offered nothing to these propertlyless elements unless it gave them some access to Parliament, addressed their needs for land reform etc., and those needs were put forward by the Levellers who began to gather increasing support. What they lacked to utilise that was a well organised, disciplened organisation. Cromwell had it, and used it to crush the Levellers.
A similar pattern could be seen during the Great French Revolution which pushed to the limits of what was possible.
Lenin using that put the Bolsheviks at the head of the Revolution precisely by learning that lesson, and by having the kind of organised force that Cromwell had been able to use. That was what transformed them from insignificance to the most powerful force. The same kind of response can be seen in Ireland with the growth of the Provos and demise of the Northern Irish Labour Movement, and even in terms of electoral politics across the communal divide, it has been Sinn Fein that has engulfed the SDLP just as the DUP has gone from insignificance to dominance. Both have keyed into the fears and concerns of their respective communities, and been the most militant representatives of it.
The reason that Lenin advocated All Power to the Soviets was that he knew under these circumstances that it was their that the Bolsheviks had the best chance of achieving that dominance. He did not for example channel that into the call for an elected Workers Government. Why? Because although the revolution was mobilising millions of people into action, many millions more were not active participants, certainly in the countryside. Putting forward the most advanced demands could only win support for the Bolsheviks amongst the ranks of those that were active particpants, precisely those actively involved, those who would be selecting and electing representatives to the Soviets. And the correctness of that analysis, and Lenin's foresight was the Bolsheviks poor showing in the elections to the Constituent Assembly where not only those actively involved, but those millions more who were passive got a vote.
So why then did Lenin not push the demand during the July Days. Not for any concern at the fate of the Provisional Government still threatened by Tsarist and fascist reaction, but precisely due to the fact that the Bolsheviks would during that time have been incapable of benefitting from the demand because their organisation had been driven underground. As soon as that situation is reversed and the Bolsheviks are able to take advantage of the slogan back it comes.
If the Labour Movement in Iraq were illegal, unable to organise incapable of operating openly, and thereby of attempting to place itself at the head of the movment by being the most militant representatives, having the most militant demands, as a means of recruiting to its banner, and increasing its significance, then I would agree that a parallel could be drawn. But that is not the case.
The other case in which raising the demand inside Iraq would not matter, though the same would not be true outside Iraq, would be if the population in their large majority were indifferent to the occupation. Had the invading troops been welcomed with garlands of flowers etc., and were indeed bringing sweetness and light then raising the demand would not be a prioritiy, precisely because it would not be soemthimng that keyed into the main concerns of the population. Such was the case in Germany at the end of WWII. What point would there have been in German socialists raising such a demand whent he German population saw the real improvements the Allied forces were bringing about. Rather the socialists then would have focussed on other radical demands such as demanding more rapid reconstruction, the placing of such reconstruction under greater democratic control etc. etc.
But that is not the case in Iraq. A casual glance at the news everyday shows the high level of opposition to the occupation, not just in Sunni areas, but throughout the country with perhaps the exception of the Kurdish areas which have effectively been under sole Kurdish control since shortly after the first Gulf war.
The same is true in raising the demand outside Iraq. It is to begin to say to the working class internationally no confidence can be placed in imperialism, or organisations such as the UN to uphold workers interests, or even to act impartially. We have to build a movement capable of standing on its own feet, defending itself, and literally where necessary fighting for our interests. It is a demand that the working class puts that into practice in the case of Iraq by coming to the defence of Iraqi workers, not just against the occupation, but against the Islamists too, whether they be Iraqi Islamists, foreign fighters, or the Iranian state. To say that we cannot raise this demand because workers will confuse it with the way the SWP and others raise the demand, is in my opinion elitist, and suggests the working class are incapable of understanding basic arguments of class solidarity and interest.
The only reason that might be the case is because for too long Marxists have failed to educate the working class by raising such demands in practical situations, and focussing on independent class action to achieve them, but have instead relied on one of the other two camps to act on their behalf. The same thing can be seen in other spheres where Marxists have allowed workers to become enmeshed in a culture of dependence on the bourgeois state, rather than counterpose their own independent action, and self-help. Self-reliance is a dirty word when taken in the individualist Thatcherite connotation, when taken in the context of collective working class self-help it is the foundation of the future society.
Arthur Bough
Slogans
Spartacus notwithstanding -
Who are we mobilising? For what end? The focus on immediate withdrawal seems to me inescapably either
- an encoded call for the assumption of power by the 'resistance'
- or a declaration of indifference as to who does have power in Iraq
- or an exercise in soul saving, an effort to keep ideological capitulation to imperialism, oe whatever, at arm's length.
- in an effort to do the third, in fact doing the second or first.
There are real political forces calling for immediate withdrawal. Even in the US, where I'm sure the heart of most of those so calling is in the right place, there is a huge undertone - isn't there? - of 'we don't want our boys to be dying in this far away place that;s nothing to do with us.' I completely understand and sympathise with that sentiment, but it surely isn't the basis for an internationalist policy. Confusing it with a genuinely democratic and internationalist impulse would be wrong.
In so far as any of us participating in this thread are in a position to mobilise anyone at all, it should be for solidarity with the workers' and democratic movement.
The parallel with Spartacus would be the 'rhetorical' call for a huge international movement of such solidarity. This we don't currently have. And it will not be called into being via a movement for troops out now which in fact is dominated by forces hostile to, or indifferent to, the workers' movement.
there are different kinds of resistance
Arthur, you wrote on 19 Nov :
"If I were a trade unionist in Iraq I would consider my chances of survival after that pull-out far greater had I been an active opponent of the occupation, especially if I looked at the experience of the attitude to collaborators with occupation forces in every other conflict."
Isn't this the nub of the debate to some extent.
Your comment presumes that AWL does not encourage the Iraqi TUs to be "active opponents of the occupation". There are different ways to oppose the occupation.
Should a relatively weak labour movement take up arms against the yanke invader as you imply? Do do so at this point would be madness. Not only would you have the so called resistance attacking your offices, as they do, but it would be inviting any number of humvees to crash through the front door as well. Goodbye organised working class.
There are other ways of opposing the occuaption. Raising political demands such as the repeal of Decree 875, jobs for the unemployed, the restoration of services and strikes for better pay being a some obvious ones.
In short you imply that taking up the armed struggle is the only solution. Having said that of course trade unions and other democratic and socialist organisations will need to defend themselves from the various reactionary forces arrayed against them. And they should prepare the means to do so. However not to take up armed conflict !now! is not the same as collaboration.
In Australia I have heard ISO (SWP) members saying that the working class is already part of the armed resistence because it is workers who as individuals are taking up arms as part of the militias e.g. in Faluja. They fail to see that acting as individuals joining the baathist or religious militias is a million miles away from the consciousness of raising political or even industrial demands as members of a class.
Response to Slogans & Different Kinds of resistance
“The focus on immediate withdrawal seems to me inescapably either
- an encoded call for the assumption of power by the 'resistance'
- or a declaration of indifference as to who does have power in Iraq
- or an exercise in soul saving, an effort to keep ideological capitulation to imperialism, oe whatever, at arm's length.
- in an effort to do the third, in fact doing the second or first.”
You have missed the other alternative, the one I have given, which is that it is part of a set of fundamental demands that meet the aspirations of the Iraqi working class, and which is a demand around which the working class in Iraq and internationally can be mobilised such as to give the central priority to the independent action of the working class, as opposed to relying on imperialism, and counterposed to the opposition to the occupation by the Islamists. It is also if you read the response from Martin above the way the WPI uses it.
“In so far as any of us participating in this thread are in a position to mobilise anyone at all, it should be for solidarity with the workers' and democratic movement.
The parallel with Spartacus would be the 'rhetorical' call for a huge international movement of such solidarity. This we don't currently have. And it will not be called into being via a movement for troops out now which in fact is dominated by forces hostile to, or indifferent to, the workers' movement.”
I agree that the focus of the Labour Movement outside Iraq is to mobilise solidarity with the Iraqi Labour Movement, but should such solidarity be limited in advance to just fund raising, and economic, political and moral support. Should workers internationally during the Spanish Civil War have decried the idea of the International Brigade rejected real independent working class action in favour of refraining from attacks on the Spanish bourgeoisie for fear of aiding Franco’s fascists, and should they, whilst not openly calling for it, have secretly hoped for liberal bourgeois democracies to have intervened against the fascists to fight their battles for them?
You are quite right that a movement hostile to the workers movement will not bring such solidarity about, but you seem to be infected with the general tone of pessimism that socialists are incapable of intervening in that to change it. The refusal to adopt the demand for Troops Out Now, a demand used by the Labour Movement in Iraq itself where they seem quite capable of explaining what they mean by it without it giving any credibility to the Resistance, seems only explicable for one of two reasons. Either it is motivated by a desire to put a plus sign where the SWP puts a minus sign, a desire to have clear water separating the AWL from them (which given the SWP’s politics is not altogether unreasonable), or reflects a belief that people in the British Labour Movement are somehow a bit dense and incapable of understanding the arguments behind the demand, a problem the Labour Movement in Iraq does not seem to have.
“Your comment presumes that AWL does not encourage the Iraqi TUs to be "active opponents of the occupation". There are different ways to oppose the occupation.”
If I gave that impression then that is my fault for not making my position clear enough. I was trying to simply make the point that the logic of not calling for Troops Out Now is, whatever the intention, to side with imperialism. The answer given to the question why not call for the removal of the occupation comes down to, “We prefer the occupation to the Islamists.” It is lesser-evilism. Yes, its possible to oppose the occupation in ways other than immediately going out and trying to blow up or shoot US soldiers; yes, some of that opposition comes down to Trade Union and political activity pure and simple, and of course that is the core of the activity that the Labour Movement in Iraq should be engaged in, but to declare from the beginning that you really don’t want the occupation forces to go just yet (even if you can’t bring yourself to be honest enough to say that out loud, but merely imply it by refusing to call for them to go, and then explaining that refusal on the basis that they are better than the alternative) not only gives a hostage to fortune, but also says to the Iraqi people, that your opposition to those forces is less than wholehearted. I assume that it is because they realise this that most of the Labour Movement in Iraq does call for Troops Out Now.
“Should a relatively weak labour movement take up arms against the yanke invader as you imply? Do do so at this point would be madness. Not only would you have the so called resistance attacking your offices, as they do, but it would be inviting any number of humvees to crash through the front door as well. Goodbye organised working class.”
But that is a complete caricature of the argument I have made. Where have I said anything that would imply that I want the Iraqi workers to take up arms and go and wage an immediate war on the occupation forces? On the contrary, what I have argued is that the demand for Troops Out Now in Iraq states in the clearest terms no support for that occupation, no reliance on it for protection against Islamic reaction, and is the basis for building working class resistance to it, and to the Islamists (when also taken in conjunction with the other demands I have suggested such as the Immediate Withdrawal of Foreign Fighters, Keep Iran Out of Iraq, and International Workers Defence of the Iraqi Labour Movement. What I have called for is that the working class in Iraq needs to build its own Defence Squads to defend it against attacks from either the Islamists or the occupying forces. That such Defence Squads where possible should be used to defend working class districts, picket lines etc. At the point when the Labour Movement in Iraq became strong enough only then would such Defence Squads be realistically turned into workers militia, and fighting units to take on the occupation and put itself at the head of the movement against it, undercutting the ground from the Islamists. The demand Troops Out Now as the WPI argue it reflects a demand not that the occupation can be thrown out now, but that the Labour Movement is determined to achieve it as soon as it is strong enough, and refuses to leave that ground open for the Islamists to seize. It certainly does not mean that workers should throw themselves into an adventurist armed struggle before they are strong enough, and nothing I have written before suggests that was what I was arguing for.
Finally, let me take the opportunity here to respond to the idea that the occupation provides a breathing space for the Labour Movement to develop implicit in what you say. I can see no evidence that the occupation forces have provided any protection to the Iraqi Labour Movement against attacks from the Islamists. It has been up to workers and students to organise that defence. The implication is that during this interregnum the workers become stronger and the Islamists stand still. The reality is that far from the occupation forces providing a breathing space for the workers allowing them to become relatively stronger, those same forces are training the Islamists to take over the state! The Iraqi police force is now at least heavily infiltrated by the Shia militia if not dominated by it. Far from providing a breathing space for the workers let alone being involved in a struggle against those reactionary Islamic forces, the US and Britain are equipping them with even better weapons and tactics with which to break the heads of the workers!!!
Arthur Bough
Poker Face
You say,
"There are other ways of opposing the occuaption. Raising political demands such as the repeal of Decree 875, jobs for the unemployed, the restoration of services and strikes for better pay being a some obvious ones."
Quite correct. However, suppose that you organised a General Strike against Decree 875 let's say. It is quite possible to conceive of such a strike occurring without it in any way threatening the occupation i.e. it does not require that the working class has grown to an extent that it can kick out the occupation. Suppose the strike was solid and looking to be successful.
At this point a representative of the occupation simply says, "Call of your general Strike or we will leave, and we know you don't want that to happen because you fear the Islamists taking over."
Checkmate in one to the occupation.
If you always use tactics like those I would love to play poker with you because even I could win against someone that declares their hand before the betting begins.
Arthur Bough
General strike
If, faced with a general strike, the worst the occupation could come up with was the threat to withdraw, it's hard to see what would have been so objectionable about it in the first place.
Faulty Logic
If the Islamic reaction are worse than the occupation, and this is the reason for not organising the working class around a demand for an immediate end to the occupation, then by definition the threat to withdraw and thereby allowing the Islamic reaction to take over IS the worst they can come up with according to your logic, because it leads to your nightmare scenario.
Of course they could come up with other intermediate threats such as attacks on picket lines themselves, rounding up labour movement activists, and many more of the things they already do, but on a larger scale. But why would they bother with such limited actions, when they can edn the game by simply playing the card you have given them, and threatening to hand over to the Islamists. All the other intermediate measures require some danger to the occupation. The threat alone of withdrawal wins the game for them at no cost.
Arthur Bough
Huh?
Sorry, Arthur. The idea that the US and Britain would respond to a general strike - ie one which was powerful enough to win - by threatening to withdraw ("Call of your strike or we will withdraw" ) is just barmy. Aren't they more likely to repress it?
Of course it could be that if there were mass strikes etc, along with Islamist insurgency, the occupiers might conclude it wasn't worth their staying any more.
But if there was a general strike, if the workers' movement was that powerful and confident, the whole situation would be different.
The point of this discussion is to assess what we should say or not say now, with existing conditions. You can extrapolate pretty much anything into hypotheticals and get tied up in knots. (Workers' revolution breaks out in Iraq, and the US decides to defeat it by threatening not to do anything.... etc)
The main problem at the moment is that there is not a workers' movement yet capable of launching a general strike of such proportions. Let's talk about reality, shall we?
Why?
"Sorry, Arthur. The idea that the US and Britain would respond to a general strike - ie one which was powerful enough to win - by threatening to withdraw ("Call of your strike or we will withdraw" ) is just barmy. Aren't they more likely to repress it?"
Why would they do that when they have a more effective no cost threat. During the 1926 General Strike the government had a similar option. It could have repressed it by force. That would probably have succeeded, but it ran the risk of soldiers mutinying, the situation becoming intensified, and any number of events that might have resulted in a situation worse than they had. But they did not need to resort to that because the TUC leaders had already given them the weapon they needed - the same weapon you have given the occupation (but which fortunately the Iraqi unions have not). The government knew that the TUC leaders feared a workers revolution more than they feared the government. They saved themselves the trouble and potential problems of repression by simply calling in the workers leaders and calling their bluff by saying - "You have won. If you want to take the power you can do. Now is that what you want?" Its reported that at that point Arthur Cook said, "We knew we had lost."
The same situation exists now in Iraq. If the workers in Iraq were to follow your advice and declare they do not want the troops out now because they fear the Islamists more than the occupation then they would be giving the same message to the occupation that the TUC gave to the government in 1926. And just as the government saw no need to adopt measures that might have backfired in 1926, but simply to call the workers bluff, so the same no cost option would be the obvious one for the occupation to adopt.
"But if there was a general strike, if the workers' movement was that powerful and confident, the whole situation would be different."
Nonsense there have been many General Strikes throughout Europe over partial issues where the workers had a chance of defeating this or that measure, but where the issue of overthrowing the government or workers revolution were never seriously anywhere on the agenda. It is quite conceivable that workers organised well in straegic industries such as oil could organise a General Strike over partial demands without them in any way considering that they were even close to being able to throw out the occupation.
And if we are talking about what demands, and what responses the occupation might give to the immediate situation just how do you think that some of the issues you have raised such as opposition to Decree 875 could be defeated and overturned unless the workers are prepared to organise a General Strike? Its unlikely these things will be overturned by clever negotiating tactics, or high paid union lawyers!
So let's deal with that question. What would you do if in response to one of the issues you have raised Decree 875, the unions over coming months mobilise support and organise a General Strike to overturn it. The occupation then say, call off your General Strike or we will leave you to the mercy of the Islamists who we have now trained up, and provided with better weapons.
You have the option call off the General Strike or gamble that the US forces, under increasing pressure at home from Republican politicians worried about their jobs, will actually leave. If you gamble they'll leave then there is no harm in calling for them to leave now because you are prepared to risk the Islamists taking over, and at least you'd be able to argue with some conviction to Iraqi workers that you really were serious about opposing the occupation. If you call off the General Strike for fear of the Islamists really being a worse option then what you are saying is you don't call for the occupation to leave in order to give time to build the Labour Movement, but the condition of building a Labour Movement is that it does not act as a Labour Movement to securee workers interests - in this case the repeal of decree 875.
You have put yourself in a logically inconsistent position, that in practice, and probably practice that might be tested in the near future leaves you in a no win situation.
Arthur Bough
General stikes
I did not say that if there was a general strike the workers would be able to take power; I said that if there was a general strike the workers would be a lot more powerful than they are now.
If the occupation's response to a general strike was to withdraw, it could only conceivably be because they were going to do so anyway, or that mass strikes were the last straw as far as they were concerned. The idea that they would use the threat to withdraw - all other things being equal - as a tactic to defeat a general strike - is potty. And if it was a plausible threat, that would be because it was, uh, a plausible threat, whether or not the workers' movement had 'shown its hand' first. Either there is a threat of civil war or there isn't, and that isn't dependent on the slogans in play.
If - to continue to imagine this absurd situation for a moment - they did simply use this as a threat, unless they actually planned to do it anyway, presumably the workers could simply ignore them.
But that is quite enough attempting to put myself in a parallel universe. Once again, let's talk about reality.
Was it Potty in 1926
Was the Government's threat to stand down in 1926 "potty" then? Potty or not it succeeded. Let' s talk about that real example.
Arthur Bough
1926
You think that was the decisive cause of the general strike's defeat? In any case, it's not a good parallel. It's one thing to threaten to resign - a standard tactic in lots of situations - when there's a clear alternative waiting in the wings (or - like in France in '68, too - your 'threat' is to 'put it to the people' and whatnot); it's surely quite another to 'threaten' (as a bargaining gambitl?) to up and leave...
If a general strike in Iraq was of such consequence that the only thing the occupying forces could think of to stop it was to leave the country, a) the working class would be very very very much more powerful than it is now, and/or b) it would not be the only thing making the US decide to withdraw.
Sorry if you thought 'potty' was rude. But this seems to me simply a fantasy-land discussion. The issue at hand is whether we should *call for* - ie, seek to buid a movement with other people who call for - something which in *existing* conditions we know would have likely terrible results. I don't think the AWL is saying we and the Iraqi labour movement shouldn't call for withdrawal in a more general sense.
One of the interesting things in the original article is the observation that in the 40s, for instance, Marxists called for withdrawal from eg, Germany, without tying it to the 'now' idea, which seems to come from the Vietnam war. Another parallel: in 1948, as the blood was flowing on the partition lines in India, would 'Britain out NOW' have been the focus of your agitation?
oops
I meant, of course, mainly 1947
Beleive me I can Deal with Potty
Believe me I can cope with rude, I'm used to dealing with debates with US Libertarians on another Board, and the word "potty" is mild in the extreme.
To deal with the points you raise. The arguments do not follow. I was not suggesting the government threatening to resign in 1926 was the cause of the defeat, I was merely pointing out that in a similar circumstance that was exactly what the government threatened to do, and, therefore, to suggest that the idea of a government or in this case the occupation using it is far from potty, but is backed by historical precedent.
You challeneg whether the analogy is appropriate. Let's compare. We have in 1926 the Government. Its counterpart now is the occupation. We have a Trade Union leadership. Today this would be your position. Thirdly we have in 1926 a potentially revolutionary working class. This in the analogy would be the Islamists. In 1926 we have the TUC leadership announcing that it fears the working class taking power more than it fears the existing government. Today we have you announcing that you fear the Islamists more than you fear the occupation.
In terms of analogy it is exact. In terms of the logical structure of the argument it is identical.
You then say,
"If a general strike in Iraq was of such consequence that the only thing the occupying forces could think of to stop it was to leave the country, a) the working class would be very very very much more powerful than it is now, and/or b) it would not be the only thing making the US decide to withdraw."
But I have already dealt with this argument. Firstly, it is quite conceivable that the working class could be strong enough to organise a general strike against a particular partial measure without feeling it was strong enough to force out the occupation against its will, just as there are many instances of General Strikes to achieve partial victories over individual issues without workers feeeling they could overthrow capitalism or even the government.
It is not that the threat of withdrawal is "the only thing" the occupation could think of to stop the strike, but that given the knowledge you have given them of your overriding fear of the Islamists it would be the most effective low-cost means of ending the strike. Over the last few weeks, and during the next couple of weeks their will be many parents using the same tactic with their children. They could use all kinds of methods to encourage good behaviour, but the simple threat that "Santa won't come" is the simplest lowest cost, whether or not they intend Santa to come or not. In the event the threat doesn't work, they still have the other options anyway.
AS for "it would not be the only thing making the US decide to withdraw." We already know that is on the cards. At a time when the US economy is in the toilet the war is costing them billions, is massively unpopular, and US politicians, even the Republicans, want out as soon as possible. The more that looks likely the more the threat of withdrawal becomes a powerful weapon in their hands against you.
"I don't think the AWL is saying we and the Iraqi labour movement shouldn't call for withdrawal in a more general sense."
I have never suggested otherwise, and the AWL's position is far better than the position either of the SWP and pseudo anti-imperialists or of the pro-imperialist LFIQ. I am merely pointing out that under the current circumstances, the failure to adopt "Now" puts the AWL out of synch with the Iraqi labour Movement that does call for "Now", gives a basis for the Islamists and their SWP supporters to claim the AWL defends imperialism whilst allowing them to monopolise the "Now" demand thereby promoting the idea that they are the most militant fighters against imperialism. In short refusal to adopt the "Now" demand cuts you off from large numbers of Iraqi workers for whom the occupation is a major and immediate concern, and it is those workers you need to attract to build the Iraqi labour Movement.
As the WPI show, using the "Now" demand is not synonymous with calling for some immediate adventurist uprising against the occupation, nor some hopeful plea to imperialism. It is a demand to key into the concerns of Iraqi workers and to build the kind of movement that is capable of defeating the occupation.
I have pointed out previously that I would not be in favour of raising the demand "Now" in relation to Germany after WWII, both because the Allies could be seen to be accomplishing something positive in reconstructing Germany, and introducing a functioning liberal democracy, and because there was no demand amongst German workers to end the occupation that could be keyed into. The situation in Iraq is completely different. There is widespread and deep hostility to the occupation amongst the working class throughout Iraq (except perhaps the Kurdish controlled region) that socialists have a duty to key into and mobilise around, the occupation is not reconstructing Iraq in any significant way (its main concern being getting oil back on line). Nor is the occupation introducing or even demanding a liberal bourgeois democratic constitution. On the contrary, it has allowed the Islamists to set up an essentially Islamist Constitution, and the occupation is arming and training the Islamists to implement it against the interests of workers and other fighting for democracy.
As far as India is concerned would Out Now have been the focus of my agitation? Probably not, I'd have to research the details and think about my answer more carefully. What I would not have said, though, if asked, is that I did not want the British to leave because they were a lesser evil. That is the AWL's position in relation to the occupation. I am not suggesting that Out Now should be the only focus of the AWL's agitation. I have suggested other demands in relation to withdrawal of foreign fighters, keeping Iran out of Iraq, and building International Workers Defence of the Iraqi labour Movement.
What concerns me is that as the posts from LFIQ on the other thread discussing this issue show, the AWL is left in a contradictory position. The logic of its argument that the occupation is a lesser evil compared to the Islamists should lead it to the conclusion of support for the occupation against the islamists. It refrains from that logical conclusion I suspect because it naturally recoils from the pro-imperialist stance this argument has led the LFIQ to.
An almost identical situation arises in relation to the conclusions drawn from its class analysis of transitional forms as I have shown elsewhere.
Bonapartism and State capitalism
Here once again the demands raised do not flow logically from the analysis. If the analysis shows that statist bureaucratic transitional forms are reactionary vis a vis capitalism as the state capitalist/bureaucratic collectivist argument says, then socialists should give no support to the NHS an organisation established form above by a capitalist government, run by the state via bureaucratic managers. etc. But the AWL correctly defends the NHS rather than seeing private capitalis medicine as a progressive alternative.
In both cases the logic of the analysis used leads to conclusions different from the demands raised. In both cases the analysis is wrong, but rather than change the analysis it is ignored in deciding on a course of action. That is a great pity because the AWL from everything I have read remains the healthiest of the Left groups in Britain, but this vacillation is a sign of opportunism.
Arthur Bough
Precedent
It is not a historical precedent, as I have already indicated. If you want to get all philosophical, you've made a logical parallel, but not a real one. The Tories in 1926 are not equal to the occupation now - for one thing because their resignation would not have been, in effect, the dismantling of the state.
And the working class is analogous to the Islamists? Huh? The parallel would have been if there was a fascist movement much stronger than the working class in 1926.
So take another parallel. Marxists could have called for the immediate overthrow of the Weimar Republic in, say, 1932. They didn't, though, did they? And indeed they would quite rightly have considered someone who insisted that 'down with the government now!' as the only revolutionary slogan was an irresponsible, or very immature, poser. The immediate task was workers' unity against the Nazis. This didn't mean they thought the bourgeois state was a useful instrument against the Nazis, either; only that they were well aware that they weren't in a position to overthrow it.
But if you overheard them arguing with some ultra-leftist, you, presumably, would have explained how by refusing to call for the immediate overthrow of the state they were handing the ruling class a good poker hand - because they could, what? abdicate power as a gambit?
Faulty Semantics
I think you have mistaken the historical argument for the logical argument. I tried to avoid that by saying,
“Thirdly we have in 1926 a potentially revolutionary working class. This in the analogy would be the Islamists.”
In other words, I quite clearly was not suggesting that the fascist Islamists are politically the same as the revolutionary working class, but that for the purposes of analysing the logical structure of the argument they occupy the same position in the parallel argument. In short the Trade Union leaders in 1926 were threatened more by a potentially revolutionary working class. You now express greater fear of the Islamists than you do of the Occupation. If you wish me to express the two parallel arguments in terms of formal logic to demonstrate that both arguments are identical I am happy to do so, but I think a cursory glance at my previous post will demonstrate that is the case.
You go on,
“So take another parallel. Marxists could have called for the immediate overthrow of the Weimar Republic in, say, 1932. They didn't, though, did they? And indeed they would quite rightly have considered someone who insisted that 'down with the government now!' as the only revolutionary slogan was an irresponsible, or very immature, poser. The immediate task was workers' unity against the Nazis etc..”
But all of this is irrelevant. I have already stated that I do not make a fetish of “Now”, nor do I consider it a principle that socialists must raise it anymore than they must call for a Government to be brought down. On the contrary I said that in Germany it would have been pointless the labour Movement raising the demand because it did not key into the concerns of the workers. The point of this part of the discussion was to lay out in logical terms the semantics of your argument that the idea the occupation might threaten to withdraw was “potty”, and to compare that with an analogous real situation i.e. 1926.
The argument about whether socialists should or should not call for “Now” is not a parallel semantic argument but a completely separate argument.
Arthur Bough
Argument?
Arthur writes: "But I have already dealt with this argument. Firstly, it is quite conceivable that the working class could be strong enough to organise a general strike against a particular partial measure without feeling it was strong enough to force out the occupation against its will, just as there are many instances of General Strikes to achieve partial victories over individual issues without workers feeeling they could overthrow capitalism or even the government."
But this doesn't address the actual argument at all - which is, precisely, not that if there was a general strike it would by definition be over something more than partial demands (and therefore by definition a challenge to the occupation), but that it would just mean the working class was much stronger than it is now. The point is that there are, currenly, not even mass strikes, not even a powerful labour movement, just the beginnings of one. And it is this situation, not fantasies about general strikes, which we should be addressing.
Missing the Point
But you have missed the point.
"But this doesn't address the actual argument at all - which is, precisely, not that if there was a general strike it would by definition be over something more than partial demands (and therefore by definition a challenge to the occupation), but that it would just mean the working class was much stronger than it is now. The point is that there are, currenlty, not even mass strikes, not even a powerful labour movement, just the beginnings of one. And it is this situation, not fantasies about general strikes, which we should be addressing.
Firstly, a General Strike quite clearly can be, and often is about partial demands. Secondly, a General Strike would require the working class to be stronger than it is now, agreed, but the argument was about the consequence the argument for not calling for "Now" (as opposed to the actual "Now" demand itself) would have under such circumstances, which clearly we hope the working class will evolve to. It is not, therefore, an irrelevant consideration.
Thirdly, the question that is most imoportant is how does the working class move from the position it is in now to the position it wants to be? Your attitude seems to be similar to that adopted by the Militant in respect of Ireland during the 1970's and 80's. The Militant quite rightly criticised the petit bourgeois politics of the Provos, whilst others on the left in Britain, including the AWL's predecessors, were at that time too soft on them believing wrongly that they had to support those involved in a national liberation struggle.
However, the Militant along with the Irish labour Movement itself ignored the national question concentrating on economism instead beleiving that "socialism" was the answer (at least in the case of the Militant). By ignoring the National question which was significant for working class people on both sides of the communal divide the Militant, and more importantly the Irish Labour Movement marginalised itself. The provos, and the protestant paramilitaries to a lesser extent, filled the void. As the Labour Movement and its poltical arm the SDLP gradually declined Sinn Fein grew until it supplanted the SDLP. Sinn Fein and the Provos knew in 1969 they could not defeat the British Army, but it did not prevent them from keying into the concern of Catholic workers over the occupation by verbalising its complete opposition to the British occupation with the demand "TRoops Out Now", knowing full well that the consequence of that might well be pogroms by the majority protestants.
The issue is can the Labour Movement in Iraq grow and develop without tackling head on the question of the occupation, and the concerns that the majority of Iraqi workers have in relation to that. How can those concerns be keyed into. If someone can come up with an alternative slogan to "Now" which verbalises complete opposition to the occupation and a commitment to end the occupation as soon as possible to key into those concerns fine. But yet no one has. Moreover, to justify the reason for not calling for now on the basis that the Islamists are worse undermines any attempt to convince workers that the opposition to the occupation is in the end limited and half-hearted.
As Clive points out those in the Iraqi Labour Movement that have adopted "Now" such as the WPI are the ones which have maintained a clear indpendent working class position. Those that have limited there call to "some time in the future" like the CP have followed the logical trajectory into alliances with the bourgoisie in an attempt to carve out a position for themselves in the new state.
Arthur Bough
Iraqi labour movement
It is not true that the Iraqi labour movement calls for troops out now. There are different views. The unions associated with the Worker-communist party call for troops out now (though - at least in the past, they seem to have shifted a bit - the WCPI position was for UN troops instead). The CP-dominated former IFTU calls for withdrawal, but not immediately. (Indeed, the CP itself has now gone into an alliance with Allawi, although it is unclear to me whether the unions they lead have been drawn into this).
It is true that a majority, according to polls, of Iraqis want the occupation to end. Precisely what that means is hard to judge. I don't think there's any disagreement that the labour movement should endeavour to 'hegomonise' this sentiment, and clearly any socialist movement would need to be very clearly in favour of Iraq's independence.
But it would have to be clear, also, that the forces currently fighting for 'troops out now' are not its allies.
Clive Bradley
I Agree
I agree almost entirely with what you have said here Clive. As for the last bit that is what the WPI do, and it is what I have been arguing. However, the converse is also the case i.e. you should add "it would also have to be clear, also, that the forces currently fighting for "defeat of the Islamists" are not its allies."
Of course, the parallel is not exact because the forces fighting for "defeat of the Islamists" i.e. the occupation are not really fighting for defeat of the Islamists, but are in fact arming and training sections of them, just as some of the Islamists who proclaim "Troops Out Now" are at the same time seeking to do deals with, gain tactical advantage from the occupation.
I do not see, however, how you can maintain this equanimity between the two whilst arguing that the reason for not calling for Troops Out Now is that you consider the Occupation a lesser evil to the Islamists.
Arthur Bough
AWL Irag policy controversial?
Hi
I can't help but notice the vast number of posts on this subject. Peronally I support the Troops Out Now demand, and the majority of the socialist left does too.
It seems that the AWL stance leaves it open to the accusation of being "soft on imperialism". Now I don't believe that is true for a moment, but don't you run the risk of isolation from the rest of the socialist left (and significant elements of the Iraqi working class) with your point of view?
Cameron
West Midlands
What This Means
One further point.
"It is true that a majority, according to polls, of Iraqis want the occupation to end. Precisely what that means is hard to judge."
Perhaps, what it means might be easier to judge when taken in conjunction with further polls which showed that even in Souther Iraq where its thought that oppoistion to the occupation is less a majority of people thought that attacks on the occupation forces were legitimate. Presumably, if they thought the occupation should only end some time in the future, they would not support people attacking them for the purpose of making their exit sooner rather than later.
Arthur Bough